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Red Hulk and American Power

Craig Norris

Feb 1620 min read

Episode 100 - With host Craig Norris

First Broadcast on Edge Radio, 14 Feb 2025.

Explore the intriguing themes of ideology and power in the latest Marvel film, "Captain America: Brave New World." Dr. Craig guides us on a thought-provoking journey into the darker side of American power, as depicted through characters like the Red Hulk. We delve into the broader implications of interpreting superhero films through heroic symbolism, revealing how these narratives reflect and challenge our understanding of societal power dynamics.

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TRANSCRIPT

This is an AI-generated audio transcript, and it may contain errors. We may update or correct this transcript in the future. Please get in touch with us if you have any questions about the information in this transcript. The audio is the official record of this episode.

Alright, welcome back here to Edge Radio on 99.3 FM. This is me mellowship and. We're episode 100 already. As you know, we look at how media can shape our understanding of the world around us on this show where streaming on edgeradio.org.uk as well as. Uh, exploring the brave new world in a way of YouTube and Twitch via streaming on those channels as well, with a bit of video radio.

There you can find us by just searching media mother ship. You can message us during the show on YouTube or Twitch or SMS US on 04 for 811707. As I mentioned where boldly going into a. Attempt at a brave new world with the latest Marvel movie, Captain America, Brave New World. Let's listen to the trailer to set the mood.

You asked for me. Here I am.

Ohh. You want help? Me.

Is there anything you remember?

Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States, that is Ross. Whatever this is, cap, be careful. What do we know? There were five shooters. Was. This was. A. Cool. Terrorist attack, Sir. I was wartime general. Ohh, I'm a wartime president. **** yourself.

Your inner circle's been compromised. Let me fix it.

Watch yourself.

You're not Steve Rogers.

You're right, I'm not.

We're on the brink of war. I can't trust anyone. Nothing about this feels right.

Captain America. Ever ask yourself who's playing who?

Someone's been pulling the strings on everything.

You're under arrest. I don't want a variable out there that I can't control.

Ohh, Captain America caught without his wings.

You like to play dress up and blindly execute the state's orders.

Think. Don't say I didn't warn you. Go. What is this? Is the trap.

You don't even know what this is.

So that would like to see my. Since when were they read?

You want me come and get me.

Alright, so that's the one of the trailers for Captain America. Brave new world, the latest superhero film based in Marvel Comics.

And it's just released here in Australia and.

We have, you know.

It's key characters that we've got here, of course, is the Sam Wilson character who's assumed the mantle of Captain. America, for those people that have been playing along at home and watching other Marvel Universe material, it's in some ways continuing some of the character development that was in the TV series Falcon and Winter Soldier back in 2021 U this. This brings it up to the 35th. Marvel movie in this cinematic universe 35. It's a it's a got a a broadcast. Probably the most interesting. Acted to see in there as Harrison Ford playing the notorious General Thaddeus Ross from the hoax series. So in many ways, some commentators have pointed out this is really a soft, incredible Hulk sequel. Or, you know, addition the Third Hulk movie if you take Eric Banner's. And as the first, then the Incredible Hulk, and now this film completely absent is the Incredible Hulk. But we do have a lot of Hulk occurring through the gamma radiation with our main protagonist, who's, you know, the leader character from those sort of read the comic book, the whole comic book, as well as the introduction of the Red Hulk. And so there will be some spoilers in this discussion, but most of them have already been spoilt by the trailers, so we're going to avoid some of the third act. Spoilers, but most of the twists and turns of the 1st and 2nd act are pretty much in the trailers already. We know Thaddeus Ross becomes prey. Presents and he becomes the Red Hulk. And so what's interesting about this film is, you know, it's it's it's got a couple of genres baked into its a bit of a kind of thriller with a political twist to it as Captain America character Sam Wilson is trying to track down and act one this kind of illegal sale of had avantium. And there's a build up around trying to get the heroes back together.

There's, you know, some some interesting developments within it. But what? What really interested me, I guess about it is, is the transformation of the character of the US president, who in this vision is is Thaddeus Ross, who has a long history in the comic books. He was the chief protagonist against the Hulk. He's a he's a military character. He's the general that had been trained to contain the Hulk or eliminate the Hulk through the whole credible Hulk. Run in in this movie, he is successfully being able to become President of America and you know, wonderful second act, escalation of the action and drama. It's revealed that. Knowingly or not, it's suggested unknowingly, he'd been microdosing himself with with gamma radiation in the hopes of prolonging his life to. Suddenly be triggered as he becomes incredibly angry into the Red Hulk and established figure in the Marvel comic book stories and certainly considered the strongest of the Hulk variations that are out there. But it's fascinating to see the symbolic significance of a US. President on film transforming into a Hulk. Uh, this idea of. You know, again, a lot of ideas in my head that are going on, but clearly this this great idea that it represents unchecked power and militarism that you have this presidential figure who you know is a is, is, is full of hubris. And this transformation into the HUD have red. Hulk, you know. Clear. Clear. Um. Symbolism of what happens when you have someone in power that has unchecked. Control over this militarism. I was, you know, checking out some YouTube clips and the first clip on the shorts for Captain America. Brave New world is indeed this very scene of the transformation of the hope. Ohh. Play it. No dialogue, but it does have some wonderful kind of special effects sounds. That we can imagine as he's there in the, you know, in front of the White House, about to deliver well, delivering AA talk to the assembled media. And then suddenly he gets angry. So it's listen to this short. So again, you know the crowd. It's a crowd shot to this short is. Someone who got their video? They're sorry, their mobile camera out during a trailer and you could hear the crowd cheer as the president. That is, Ross transforms into the Red Hulk. So there's some interesting ideas around ideology and power that I think are coming out in. This version of. The Red Hulk and the direction marvels taking it in which I think of the most intriguing parts of, of exploring it. Obviously there's some kind of tension there I find at the heart of the film between this really sanitised version of American heroism, right, you've got Captain America played by well, you know, I giving that kind of of identity of American heroism. And then on the other hand, you've got this this Red Hulk character who's the US president, who transforms into the red hole and goes on a destructive rampage through DC, which again, is this flip side into this kind of repressed, maybe traumatic reality that he symbolises, that this, this kind of again, the sanitizer image of American military and. Our of the Captain American character, you know who's strategically being able to to be a morally good character that goes in and solves various conflicts and battles. But is morally true and won't kill people. Most importantly IS is, I think, yeah. Interestingly balanced, you know, in this ideological fantasy. The by this repressed Hulk figure that we have there. So I think there's some interesting things. I mean, you know, the the critical reaction that I briefly had a look at online is very lukewarm to this film. The the senses. It's not a great film. It's an okay film, but I think there are some some interesting themes there. You could dig into in terms of, I guess the film S portrayal of that classic mythology of American exceptionalism. Right. And particularly the fantasy of it that you have these American superheroes on, the more symbolic of that than indeed Captain America. U that are setting up this idea of of of a type of American exceptionalism. But you also have have tedious Ross, the character of the president himself, who has some some absolutely crazy lines about what was that we heard in the trailer. I was a war general. Now in the war, president, the moments in the film where there's international dispute over who owns the latest, it's just kind of rare substance. The adamantium, which had been discovered and tedious. Ross sending America onto a war footing to secure it. So again, you have these ideas of American exceptionalism that the world is is, is. This in the betterment through what is the best interest of America. But then I think you have this idea that's presented in the film. If you want to read it a little more deeply that there that this fantasy of American imperialism or exceptionalism, Dennis, hide A deep, dark side, you know that that aspects of of American political power and militarism. I like the Red Hulk. It's just a rage machine. It's just a unfettered, um, destructive presence which is morally dubious, if not lacking entirely. So I think this is interesting ideological fantasies that can be unpicked in this film. Uh, I think there's some interesting. Blurring between reality and fiction going on, you know, I think some of the current media around Donald Trump, even Musk, are very much kind of bleeding into. And some of the readings you could make of this film today, as it's released in a post Trump America or post Trump election America, um. So I think that there's some interesting kind of blurring of reality and fiction while the script of this and the filming of it, you know, would have good long before the election was determined. Nevertheless, seeing it today, there's some really fun blurring between reality and fiction. I think you could read into it, but ticularly how? Again, I think this character with the Red Hulk can can embody this real spectacle of of violence and power. Undeniably, I think the film really shines when you have the spectacle of the Hulk smashing the White House and parts of DC. Uhm. That kind of spectacle, particularly because I think it's it's one way if you take the ideology of it kind of undermines aspects of the traditional hero narrative. It's a good counterpoint to the Captain America character, which I think you know, I mean the Samuelson characters interesting, but I don't think he's done any favours in this film. He's very boring in a way. He's got a very undesirable job in terms of the heroic protagonist who has to maintain a very moral, traditional hero story, that they're there they're exploring. I don't think his character brings much to the film. In fact, I would have found the film much more interesting as a conventional Hulk film with the kind of Bruce Banner Hulk as the flipside of a Red Hope character. But nevertheless, I do think what it does do well is upset that traditional here and narrative of Captain America by counter playing it with, I think a much more relevant figure of a president who's the Red Hulk. So again, I think there's really interesting implications about maybe superhero films still having some contributions to play into today's world, right? If you take a post modern approach again, that idea of the blurring of reality and fiction there I think is an interesting discussion about what the. The superhero brings to this if the superhero is dead. I mean, I think, yeah, I think the the kind of lack of the Captain America character to really be an interesting character in this film, given that's the the, you know, the the film's literally called Captain America kind of suggests to me a death of the superhero in this film. And if anything and more interesting narrative undermining that traditional hero narrative where the Red Hulk is this kind of hyper real spectacle of violence and power, which I think does feed more directly into probably the nervousness, concerns and anxiety people have towards America and its president today. You know, I think there's some interesting ideas about the. You know, I I again, I I'm drawn back to the Red Hulk. I do think that the way in which he represents, I think, an inherent contradiction, contradiction between the kind of America of as a capitalist power structure. And you know, maybe you could go ******** Marxist on it and say that the moment at which Harrison Ford, who previously paid a presidents F Force One, this kind of aspirational, uhm, you know, myth of American exceptionalism. Figure in this film I. Think it's the if it's. It's a wonderful counterpoint to that. Where? That, you know clearly, um, this character is is inherently unstable and has, you know, he's building basically a superhero industrial complex. If you take that military industrial complex reality of America and layer on top of it a superhero story, and then you have a president himself who is deceptively engaged in building a superhero industrial complex to better America and himself again unknowingly, it seems it suggested in the film becoming a Hulk. Yeah, I think there's there's, there's quite an interesting contradiction which you could dig into in this film. Uh again, you know, if we are to explore the Red Hulk further and fascinating moments in which you see the Red Hulk reflected in various mirrors and that kind of awareness of the President, Harrison Ford played by Harrison Ford, seeing himself as a monstrous object, that there's there's mermaids and and in fact to to bring him out of the Hulk stage. It's very much a a dialogue of of of trying to rehumanise him, trying to to get him to escape. The the kind of, I guess, deepest fear and anxiety has and and again. It's why I think this film, the most interesting thing about this film is Harrison Ford's performance and the character of Red Hulk that he's allowed to emote through. You know, it's it's the fears and anxieties that the US president tedious Ross had. As in terms of, you know, his own power, that is, you know, he says the reason he started taking these pills that turned him into the Hulk is he was about to die. And so, so anxiety and fear about his own mortality. But then in an existential crisis, I think that could be laid on top of what there's an anxiety these projected onto American power. American militarism. American identity. You know, I think there's a nice one to one match in some ways between the choices. That is, Ross is making is going into the president. In fact, you know, again another layering of that. Is that you know and against this script writer must have been aware of this, that one of the reveals is the use of this gamma um enabled individual who I, you know, it's the leader who has his brain has become superpowered and he's able to basically predict things which are happening in the future now. So and so, you know through probability says like it's 99% chance that I knew you would do this. So basically he's the puppetmaster behind this, but the idea there that flat Ross had used secretly this guy to win him the election again later. On top of this, this post modern idea of reality and fiction, where this fiction blurs into what we know of the reality of, you know, the use of. The various social media networks in the first Trump victory. You know the idea that various uses of social media, and again, some of the suspicion around the use of Elon Musk and his money to basically be able to guarantee the probability of success. And so again, as you could do some really interesting post modern. Takes on this film UM, and I think you know, I mean where it falls over also is is while it's interesting to consider a layering of what it means to be the US president as manifested in the Red Hulk, who is basically a force of. Of of vine. Once hyper real violence is is a kind of psychology and cultural significance of what the Red Hulk means, right? I mean, and they didn't explore that kind of, I mean that by the time the third act is there, the film is is kind of fizzing out a little and and I do feel like there's there's much more. Area to possibly. Dig into around that idea of of the human and monster that it it meant for character like Thaddeus Ross, who had always been the antagonist. To the superhero universe. Himself becoming the the monstrous Albert and. Yeah. And and again, I think it's a much more interesting character than the Captain American character that which the script didn't give much to do right. I do feel like there's not. Not too much there. Um, apart from being able to establish the idea of a Captain America captain, you know being conflicted. And struggling with what? Heroism and power means that he has. So again, the Captain America character did much more cautionary ideal vision of a traditional hero who is, you know, that classic with great power comes great responsibility. This stereotype right, which is what he's struggling with. Making sure that his form of heroism and his form of power, and again, you know one of the points developed and hit hard throughout the film, is that he's he's not on these these these super announcement steroids which are turning people into red hulks which are turning, you know, the previous Captain America's into who they are that Sam Wilson's cat version of Captain America is not on the juice right he's he's fully human so again you know it's trying to set up a a a more morally stable and strong view of heroism and power. Comma and so yeah, I can see what they're trying to achieve in this film by juxtaposing Sam Wilson's idealism with the Red Hulk and particularly the vision of the presidents, the Red Hulk represents, and the red hulks kind of militaristic pragmatism, right? So I think there's a fascinating tension that's there. If you go in with a mind that's wanting to engage round this, this justice and morality question that they're getting close to. U you know it's it's but you know the the scripting does make it really full flat. You know, I do feel that those moments where they suddenly change the scene to exposition and digesting the type of justice and morality issues really empty of motion and delivered quite flat, you know, even at the at the end, I don't think that idea of justice and morality really is finally wrestled with what it meant that a President of the US became a Red Hulk. Right. I I think that the capacity of the film to hold these multiple and contradictory truths in a way is just more than it can. How? Would UM. We have, but maybe that ambiguity is quite interesting. You know, I think that analysing, you know, as much as I'm kind of downbeat on the Sam Wilson character of Captain America, I do think it's interesting and well deserving of ethical dilemmas to be engaged with. All right. Those ethical dilemmas aren't really translated in the third act around the repercussions of of the emergence of the Red Hulk. I think the film kind of portrays, you know, a generous interpretation would be that it's it's it's doing its best to portray this existential struggle of of a superheroes who are trying to find this meaning and purpose in what Sam Wilson's reading is a very morally ambiguous world. Ohh. You know and again, which is why the performance of Harrison. Bored, as the president is, is just delicious. You know it's it's, you know, Bryan Cranston in Breaking Bad. It's this kind of morally ambiguous character that is grey that's struggling to do the right thing at times. You think, but then you doubt and that's how much more interesting character to develop. Then what? The Sam Wilson practise left with I I do feel that that the main focus of this film is stolen by Red Hulk and the performance of of Harrison Ford, which is not surprising. Is it enough to see the movie? It's not enough to see the movie just for that, sadly. The hyper real violence is is, is is very satisfying the big screen, but it is quite let down. I think by by aspiring to tell quite an interesting existential story again of this struggle between meaning and purpose in a morally ambiguous well. But it it it. Just falls flat as it tries to utilise around this. I think it could be more showing, not telling at those points that tension around. You know the kind of collective responsibility that's there isn't dealt with, right? You know the collective responsibility around electing Thaddeus Ross and the Red Hulk. It's just not explored, which I think is much more interesting thing. I think there's some interesting, you know, symbolism around the hero. That's that's trying to be explored, possibly. UI the most interesting thing again is the subversion. I do think there's there's some nicer version of the superhero genre that if you wanted to have some fun with this film, you could do in terms of particularly a type of patriarchal superhero paradigm, right? You have the the daddy figure of them all, Thaddeus Ross. Who has daughter issues throughout it? And this kind of patriarchal Daddy figure is the US president and his very much kind of. You know, this kind of American exceptionalism. Patriarchal figure who's throwing his weight around to the other world leaders and saying it's my way or the highway. And there is a a nice version of the logic of that craving for power that then explodes on the screen as as the US President becomes Red Hulk. Right. And I think that could. Have subverted quite dramatically ideas of, you know. Yeah, the myth making of American superhero exceptionalism it it doesn't. Sadly, in the third act actually achieve that. Uh, but you know, as an experiment, I enjoyed. I mean, the film is certainly helped tonnes by having this hypermasculine red hope figure. You go from this kind of aged week. Kind of neurotic figure of the tedious Ross president, played by Harrison Ford into a hypermasculine Red Hulk. And there is a wonderful I mean I and I think that's again you can see that in some. Of the cheers of. The audience reaction as the head Red Hulk emerges and basically just destroys DC. Um, you know it again, layering on top of that, some of the narratives of Trump wanting to drain the swamp, you know, again, you can't think. But in a post mortem, the sense about the blurring of fiction and reality here that that clearly aspects of this fictional story. Are dovetailing into symbolic stories of today's reality. So I do think there's some really interesting ways in which this film, you know, you can dig into this film U some, some interesting interpretations. But let's let's hear a little bit about this. So here we have a short one minute clip as some of the production team are talking about creating this. Red Hulk figure. So let's listen to to how they they explain this Red Hulk figure again performed by Harrison Ford.

The fact that Harrison Ford is playing President Ross Slash Red Hulk. Is kind of one of the many pinch yourself moments for me.

Ohh well, I'm still speechless. I knew he got big. I knew he got mean.

I knew he got red.

That's all I needed to know.

Harrison brings you in and all of a sudden you're a part of it, sculpting a character in a world this big. I couldn't put a price on that lesson.

Marvel brings to the screen excitement.

Entertainment. Spectacle.

And I thought, well, maybe I ought to get me some of that.

O so that's the post film promo piece with Harrison Ford and others talking about their kind of building of the Red Hulk figure. And again, you know, I I do think it's it's it's fun to see this film for the Red Hulk performance and you can definitely layer into it how the Red Hulk figure embodies some some big. Yeah, you know, collective fears and desires that I think are coming in today's world. Right. Collective fears around what this level of of power means within a superhero universe, particularly when we're seeing how there's a darker side to aspects of political power. Militarism. We try getting played. Amount I could be done more effectively being played out in. A few like this. Particularly, I think if you want to critique ideas of American exceptionalism, this film I think, is open to quiet a nice counter readings around how you have a very sanitised version of American heroism performed by the Captain America character. And then you have this repressed tornadic reality of American heroism as portrayed through the Red Hulk. I do think there's a darker side that can be explored around this fantasy of power and militarism that often is associated with the US, both in in fiction and reality. I think that this film is these timely in that sense in terms of allowing some exploration of some of the current news around what this. Well, it is today where we have various news around the sitting President Donald Trump in America, and he on Musk's influence and questions around what, as you know, anxieties are here today, particularly with concerns around. You know the type of of of kind of superhero industrial complex. Which which you. Could dig into in this film and the kind of inherent instability I I think that's there. The fact that all these secrets and betrayals and the type of, you know, um economic underpinnings of superheroism get all revealed in that third act with the best manifestation of it being the US president, proved by Harrison Ford turning into the red. Smoke. So I think there are some really interesting boundaries which can get disrupted in this film. You could have fun with. But ultimately, yeah, I think in terms of of of it as a Captain American film, it's very lukewarm. I think the same Wilson Captain America character is setting up an idealistic version of of a traditional superhero narrative of heroism and power, and the struggle and conflicting perspectives around that have a much more interesting is the dialectic kind of tension that's there within the Red Hulk around questions of justice and morality, which I think that character bruises and a much. More kind of embodied sense as he becomes this hypermasculine, hyperviolent figure. I think that contradiction and the kind of contradiction in truths in quote marks of a kind of superhero, and particularly the American superhero. If we take that as a as a surrogate for powa militarism and identity, yeah, I think that's quite fun. I think there's some interesting heroics. Symbolism is in this. Yeah. So you might want to wait for it to come on the streaming if you have the money, jump in to enjoy some of the action scenes and yeah, plummet the depths of whether or not there's a kind of post modern blurring of reality infection. Allah Harrison, Ford's president. Ross and the real world President Trump. Interesting thought. It was fun. It was a lot of fun going to see it so, so very enjoyable afternoon. Uhm, but again, go into it, not expecting a character Captain America film that's entertaining, but go into it expecting a Red Hulk film that will have. About 30 minutes of of quite thought provoking and vicarious, violent enjoyments. We'll we'll leave with one last little trailers thought.

I knew you got big.

And then we'll be going on break next week. I'll be doing a little bit of field research somewhere in Australia that will bring back and in Episode 101 we'll explore that ideas that I'll bring back in two weeks a bit further. So no medium ownership next Friday. But we will return the Friday after and I have a message just before the shows ending, so we've got a great message there from M Veraldi saying maybe he wants to build a hero complex because he knows everybody has a monster side in them and it doesn't take much to bring them out. Yeah, look, and I think that's, I mean if we want to go into the kind. Of Psychonauts psychoanalytic dream therapy that you could sit down with someone like Ross and explore around the the the Red Hulk. I do think there's a wonderful revelation of maybe the unconscious desires we all have around wanting power and maybe a bit of heroism and some aspirational. Generally, and I think there's also fears there. So I do think the the instead of the military industrial complex, the superhero industrial complex. Yeah, can manifest some some fun questions around, you know, maybe our own unconscious designs for for a bit of power to be the hero to have that. That strong hyper identity. Who knows? Thank you very much for that comment. So keep listening now to Edge radio. We've got some cool tunes coming up and Medium mother ship will be back in two weeks.

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