Episode 91 - With host Craig Norris and guest Ashley Remminga & Taylor Lidstone.
First Broadcast on Edge Radio, 22nd November 2024.
Dive into the world of moe in manga and anime. Discover the key issues behind this concept as we break down character design and the emotional journeys of fans. We'll also explore how moe can be applied to popular Western TV shows and films. Plus, we tackle the more controversial aspects, including lolicon and the challenges of government classification around obscenity. Don't miss this deep dive into one of Japan's most fascinating cultural phenomena.
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Watch the SourceFedNERD's second part here: What is Moe? (Part 2)
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TRANSCRIPT
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CRAIG NORRIS
Alright, welcome to episode 91 of media mothership broadcasting out of Edge Radio Studios here in Nepal. Luna, Hobart. TAS. On the show we explore how media can shape our understanding of the world around us. We're streaming on edgeradio.org dot AU as well as I believe. YouTube and Twitch, who knows? We do have a chat window up, possibly connected to those streaming devices, so do let us know if we're streaming or not on there. Or you can SMS us directly into the studio on 0488811707. I'm your host Doctor Craig joined by. PH D Yep.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Ashley yes, HD actually works.
CRAIG NORRIS
PhD, Ashley.
AHLEY REMMINGA
I'm back again. You are. I'm my Godzilla. Like we discussed last week. I'm back. That's right. People just can't get rid of me.
CRAIG NORRIS
Thought oh. What a Cliff hanger from last year. Last year. Last episode with the reveal of the Munger. What was it? Manga Kaiju caramelise.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah, Kaiju girl caramel.
CRAIG NORRIS
Iju girl, Caramelise, and that got us talking afterwards. About Munga and we we got talking about Moe, I think and I was saying how I felt. Moyer is associated with the decline of kind of mugger and anime for some people. And that's spawned today's topic, which indeed is going to be deep diving into some genre aspects of or some classification aspects of Japanese comic books and animation and the broader impact that can have on. On us, yes, media culture more broadly. So today's topic. Yeah, we're going to be looking at mohair. The definition I've got here and we'll be trying to tease this out during the whole show definition I've got here is it's it refers to a feeling of strong affection or adoration. Towards characters who are cute, innocent, and endearing, these characters often evoke protective and nurturing emotions in fans. It's a term used to describe the charm and appeal of these characters. Making them beloved by many. Does that kind of get us?
AHLEY REMMINGA
Started. Yeah. So you'll. I'm sure there will be people who will disagree and go for a very, you know, MOA is this type of character, but that's a I guess from Patrick Galbraith, I think, yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Patrick Galbraith, one of the key kind of researchers in this space where they will put some links to some of his work and.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Show notes later. Yeah, and that's, I guess, the definition that he uses. And I I think it's a quite a decent explanation. So yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Excellent. And and look, we're gonna put a bit of a listener discretion advised thing here to save us as inevitably our discussion might stray in the direction of the controversial topic of modicon. So that's content lolicons content that includes themes that may be disturbing. Uncomfortable to some listeners, including the portrayal of young characters in potentially explicit contexts, we encourage listeners to approach this episode with sensitivity and awareness, listener discretions advised. So yeah, it's gonna get pretty exciting or informative.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah, both. Hopefully, yeah, hopefully.
CRAIG NORRIS
So to get us started as we've done, we're gonna turn the the start of it into a bit of a A react discussion I came across to YouTube clips from 9 years ago. I mean, obviously manga and anime is content that's happened since then, but I think it gets us off to a good start. So what we're going to do is play aspects of these first two video clips. The source is from source fed nerd. Do you know anything about source fed nerd?
AHLEY REMMINGA
I've heard the name. I think we've reacted to them before, maybe.
CRAIG NORRIS
Well, my inoculation is still in my system, so I think we can react again. Alright, So what we'll do is we'll play the first parts of Moab and we'll pause it at certain points and train and pack it a bit further using our combined. Intellectual minds. Yeah. So here it is. What is Moen?
Speaker 4
What is moey? Is it cute? Is it innocence or is it creepy? We have just stepped into dangerous territory as Moe has multiple meanings, and the subject itself is highly argued over all the time. The main issue with mowing is that the line between Moee and Noriko long is sometimes blurred. We'll discuss the controversy over Moey in next week's episode, but for now, let's clarify what moan. Actually is in general I think of it as a distinguishing feature or trait that makes a character stand out in a charming and endearing manner. A lot of people explain Moe as having a little sister effect where you want to take care of or protect the character. The word itself originates from the Japanese word moite, which means A to burn up or B to sprout or blossom.
CRAIG NORRIS
Like, OK, so like that Japanese origins to burn up and to sprout and blossom because it is one of these translation headaches that you hits when you're taking a Japanese concept into English. Because I guess in Japanese this term and the reason why we're not saying because we could be saying in English. Yeah, this is my like I have a. Burning feeling towards this. I have a I have a budding feeling towards. This neither of those work. We never. Hey, you know what? Did you really like about last night's episode of My Little Pony? Yeah. And you could be saying, well, you know, I loved how you know this My Little Pony character did this.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Pinkie Pie, pinkie pie.
Speaker
There we go. Yeah, yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
And and specifically using My Little Pony because I do think that has some of the Western to Western text, which I think. There's a lot of this mohair.
AHLEY REMMINGA
I I think definitely Generation 4 has a lot in my way in it. Yeah, that's the previous generation. It was massive and sparked the whole brony movement. And yeah, so you.
CRAIG NORRIS
Generation 4, which generation is this?
Speaker
Right.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right. All right. So within the My Little Pony universe, of course My Little Pony came out in the nice.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Had.
CRAIG NORRIS
80s That's generation 1.
Speaker
Yeah.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Or something generation 1, I think Generation 2 followed on kind of like it. It was the lines were blurred where 1 ended and two began, then 3 came out. I think in the 90s, two early 2000s and then Gen 4 came out around 2010. Was crazy popular cause and now we're up to five so yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
The bronies emerged within that right and My Little Pony was. She had adult fans that had male fans towards this property, which had been kind of. Of you know, stereotyped as as kind of kind of gal, enjoyment and and the reaction to that has aspects of this mohair thing we're describing right where people are like. This is my favourite character, which I guess is kind of like, OK, so we've got this to literally translates as as a.
AHLEY REMMINGA
As a burning or budding I I do not know for certain I I don't. Wanna. That's true? Put myself down. So yeah, I I definitely do not know the translation for my way, but I'll take their word.
CRAIG NORRIS
Don't. It is, I believe is. When I've heard more defined. For it and I think, yeah, within its anime manga usage, it's also a kind of appropriation of this. To convey, you know, these kind of sentiments of again a kind of adoration, heightened interest, right? But yeah, I guess affection and adoration. Right. So why?
AHLEY REMMINGA
I I think it I think the best way to sort of view it would be something like when you look at like a puppy. And you go ohh. That sort of feeling you get when you do it. That is the word my way is sort of encapsulating that sort. Of feeling, but to a fictional character.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yes. So the feeling you have in your heart when you see a puppy and you know, maybe you had its head or you cradle it.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Ohh, now you're now. You're making me think ohh.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah, yeah, but we're talking not about the the actual puppy here. We're using it as a as as a term used by fans for pop culture. Like I'm thinking, I don't know. Well, I'm going to get 2 examples that I think in. The West might. Work, but let's let's push on then.
Speaker 4
Kanji most associated with the concept is the latter. The origin of Moi is pretty obscure. One could argue that it's existed forever, but many believe Tommy Hotaru or Sailor Saturn from Sailor Moon is the first instance of how Moy came to mean what it. Does today this is.
CRAIG NORRIS
You Sailor Moon fan to Salamone. Is it the Ground Zero?
AHLEY REMMINGA
I took forever to get around to watching Sailor Moon. I watched it. I absolutely loved it. So yeah, I I do like Sailor.
CRAIG NORRIS
Moon more. The more connection in Sailor Moon though.
AHLEY REMMINGA
I I can see it and I I've heard this sort of origin of my way.
CRAIG NORRIS
And see, yeah.
AHLEY REMMINGA
But yeah, I wouldn't necessarily in these days. Think. Mm-hmm. Sailor Moon, when I first think my way.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah, because Sailor Moon, I mean, it's not like there's a puppy equivalent character in Sailor Moon. Right. There's there's there's adorable characters. Yeah, but there's not that. Yeah. Are they adorable? Innocent. I mean, yeah, there are probably better characters that fit more firmly than.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah, I I think it was really that spark of like, this character is almost like you feel sad for it and wanna protect the character, sort of like they're so sweet and you wanna protect them sort of. Feeling. I think that's where Sailor Moon, they sort of attribute it to, but I don't know if I would necessarily say that's that. That might be where it originates from in terms of etymology and whatnot. But these days, I wouldn't necessarily think that one yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yes, innocence. Best. OK.
Speaker 4
Due to her defining traits like her fragile. Body and personality. Her sad past, her delicate nature, all of which make you want to save her. Also because her last name, Tomboy, is written in the kanji that's associated with Moey. Since it's hard to understand and define, I've come up with three pieces of criteria that a character needs to possess in order for it to be considered. Moai first is the character cute, and I don't mean kawaii. I'm talking over the top makes you want to squeal. And melts type of cute 2nd is the character, yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
So cuteness, right? So I'm thinking like I I try to make a list of Western characters I was thinking might fit into some of these classifications. So cuteness.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Maybe the minions from despicable.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yes, I I think 100% you could put that into that sort of I most like that my way way sort of category I I. Don't think they're. Cute, but a lot of people absolutely crazy for them. And you know, I think, yeah, you can definitely.
CRAIG NORRIS
Because I guess they've got what childlike behaviour these are the minion characters from Despicable Me, and they're kind of, yeah, certainly the merchandising around them is this kind of cuteness. It's certainly my 15 year old daughter. Had a heavy enjoyment of the minion characters. I guess they're playful actions. So OK, yeah, so cuteness. Maybe Nemo finding Nemo cutes.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah, I I can. I can definitely say Nemo.
CRAIG NORRIS
I mean, I guess as you're saying, it's that innocence and vulnerability. Maybe more of that. Let's OK, let's push on.
Speaker 4
Character innocent and easily flustered by the notion of romance are cute, and I don't mean kawaii. I'm talking over the top makes you want to squeal and melt type of cute 2nd is the character innocent and easily flustered by the notion of romance. This.
CRAIG NORRIS
#2. So this is number 2.
Speaker
All right.
CRAIG NORRIS
OK. Yeah, innocence. Certainly the innocence I think there's tonnes of characters in the West that people love.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Again Nemo from finding Nemo. I had. I did a search actually and and one of the things on ChatGPT that it said is a Moab from the West is is Dobby from Harry Potter. I don't know it's. A stretch, I mean the the OK, they said Dobby, the house elf is a moire character in the Harry Potter series. His loyalty, innocence and vulnerability combined with his endearing appearance evoke strong feelings of affection and protection. Liveness from both the characters in the story and the audience, so they're saying the characters in the Harry Potter story behave in a Moab fashion towards Dobby.
AHLEY REMMINGA
I I suppose so.
CRAIG NORRIS
I think I mean it's real that one, really. Yes, I. Innocence, yeah. News.
AHLEY REMMINGA
This is one of those times. I can't tell of chat EPT's getting smarter and and becoming sentient, or if it's just going off the deep end and is getting.
CRAIG NORRIS
More dumb. It's definitely an unconventional choice for for Dobby.
AHLEY REMMINGA
It is.
CRAIG NORRIS
So yeah, I mean, the innocence. Loyalty, yes, is a loyal character, but loyalty is not really part of the Moat. Yeah, core defining qualities we've got.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Not necessarily. I I think what's interesting about this sort of video is also it's taking the other approach of a more characterisation of, yeah, Norway, as opposed to galbraiths more feeling alignment.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah. Yeah. So I do want to get around to galbraiths points because yeah, this is. Very character centric. Rather than talking about unpacking the psychology of us as viewers, it's almost that kind of database animal moment of saying, OK, here's here's a spreadsheet of.
Speaker
Of the rules.
CRAIG NORRIS
Of of of the mohair connection and yeah, and and I think the thing that's misleading about this is that it's not like I could go out tomorrow and create my manga that has these rules and get it to be more because it's not as easy as.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah. Unless you're Kyoto animation. Which case? Yeah, I'm for anyone not familiar. It's an animation studio. Which?
Speaker
Yeah.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Is known for being only Mohave making machine even when it tries not to. They go Oh no, it's just moey.
CRAIG NORRIS
It's true, it's. Interesting here that they link that idea to innocence sub category of the innocence is was it a sexual immaturity? A kind of an embarrassment about. Sex or or or how is it expressed it's?
Speaker 4
Type of cute 2nd is the character innocent and easily flustered by the notion of romance. This is a.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right. Romance. Yeah. So that that kind of naivete. Towards attraction and again part of that I guess would be. Yeah, it'd be interesting. The settings that was placed in and where that can get into trouble is we'll look at in Part 2 is, is that age issue around that issue? Yeah, all.
Speaker 4
Right. It's important because an experience with romance speaks to innocence, which alludes to being vulnerable, which makes you want to protect and save them. And that is a huge defining factor of what makes a character mode.
CRAIG NORRIS
Protect and save them. Yeah. And that's the Dobby do. Do. Does Harry wanna protect and save Dobby? Alright, I I keep coming back to Dobby. We're really gonna do an entire episode on Doby. One day. Gosh.
AHLEY REMMINGA
I I suppose so, but OK, so maybe maybe that's a a comment like a poll for your chat and everyone listening.
CRAIG NORRIS
So. That's a great idea. Putting Bobby aside then protect, protect the character and kind of save their innocence that that. That seems both in well. As well as the defining categories of how fan could.
AHLEY REMMINGA
React. Yeah. So you've also got that emotional. Like, I feel like I need to protect and I guess you could look at that with a really cute puppy. You also get that feeling of, like, I need to protect this really cute puppy because it is so cute.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah, it's vulnerable. It's young, it's not fully formed yet, OK. Pushing on.
Speaker 4
3rd does the character have some sort of a quirk? It can be a physical feature like their hair colour, oversized glasses or pigtails. It can be behavioural like crying all the time or being clumsy, or it can even be a part of their speech pattern. Invader lumps saying thatcha and chat at the ends of her sentences is a good example. My.
AHLEY REMMINGA
A quirk I think that's just good character design. Like if you don't have a quirk of a character you you forget the character exists. So yeah, I I don't. Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
I can catch the catch phrase cowabunga. Yeah. Yeah, that seemed, I mean. Yeah, I mean, I guess if you were to interview fans about their favourite characters and break it down, what is it that you find really appealing about this character? Then they might fixate on a particular item of clothing.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah. Yeah, it might be like what they wear. You know, it might be. And this is like when you read a text like, you know, you, you get stuff.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Out of it, I see people cosplay certain characters because, you know, they they like this sort of the. You know, way they act in the the show might be the way they speak. It can be a lot of things. So I don't think it's necessarily a trade of my way. I think it's just a trade of any character you remember.
CRAIG NORRIS
Oh, and talking of characters where you remember coming into the studio and you can't get in. It's my co-host, Taylor Ashley. Let's let's do improvise. Theatre of the mind. Ashley's opening up the door now to. Media motherships Moyer character Taylor? All right, I'll continue, Michael. Hello. Hello. Hi. So you're joining us into the discussion now of defining more. Is Taylor, who mainly Kpop, right. Yeah, but more air. Have you come across the?
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Term mohair not not in KPOP, no.
CRAIG NORRIS
So we're going to pioneer that.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Is there an? Equivalent term in KPOP? What is it if you don't?
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
OK. Well, I don't know. I don't know what. Know I don't know what it is.
CRAIG NORRIS
SMS and now if you do all right, so we're up to category 3. So now we're moving into final statements from this video of defining more. OK.
Speaker 4
My favourite movie characters are Nika from Chunibyo, demo Koi, Ghashghai, Chicha and Osaka from Azumanga Daiyo.
CRAIG NORRIS
Alright, that's a bit boring. She's listing.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Off her I I I proved to Rika straight away top tier one of my favourite characters so.
CRAIG NORRIS
All right, right. Right.
Speaker 4
Yes, from oreimo of course, like I from Nisekoi, Monica from Nagano, Askara. I might as well just check out a bunch of these and more.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
On Crunchyroll, So what I can understand from that is more. It means you have big eyes. Is that right?
CRAIG NORRIS
He's a kind of defining feature. What was the? What was the definition we've got so far, it's that the character, what were the three rules? It's that they've got to be.
AHLEY REMMINGA
I've I've already forgotten.
CRAIG NORRIS
I know this is.
Speaker
It.
CRAIG NORRIS
It's it's they've got to be. I think the Rule 2 is they've got to be innocent. Mm-hmm. And, you know, being said in the the viewer, they want to protect them. So for, for example, I was saying that the character kept coming back to Dobby.
Speaker 6
OK.
CRAIG NORRIS
Because I did a damn Jeff BDG search and it said, you know, here's the following characters from the West that are mohair and it had, you know, obviously. My Little Pony in there, but I had ethe extraterrestrial. So it said ET is a more character because childlike innocence. OK, it's vulnerable. Right. So there's a there's a. There's a part of the the definition vulnerable and like innocent they evoke strong protective feeling in both characters in the movie and the audience.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
OK. Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right wall E is is moire again. Because of this innocence, loneliness, pure heartedness that the character. Has. The minion characters from Despicable Me are because they are a kind of childlike and cute right. There's also acuteness of them, so, ETC. I wouldn't say ET he's cute, or while he's cute, I mean, people can define cuteness.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Oh yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
As a bit of. A stretch, equally doby. Not cute, but yeah, the Despicable Me, minions are finding Nemo, the Nemo fish, the Nemo character again vulnerable innocent now.
Speaker
Hmm.
CRAIG NORRIS
Knobby. So the argument here is is chichi's saying Dobby the house elf is a Moat character in Harry Potter series, his loyalty, innocence and vulnerability combined with his endearing present appearance, endearing appearance evoke strong feelings of affection and protectiveness from both characters in the story and the audience. You're a huge Harry Potter fan, so do the characters in Harry Potter behave protectively and with strong affection towards.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Yeah. Dobby, Harry does.
CRAIG NORRIS
Harry does. That's it. Alright. Yeah. OK. So Harry would would here be demonstrating the characteristics of moare towards Dobby? There could be a brief handpick there probably already.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Are that that would be a.
CRAIG NORRIS
100 in a previous slide for media mothership we did some radio dramas based on fan fiction experiences.
Speaker
We did.
CRAIG NORRIS
So OK, so that's what we've done next so far. Ashley made the great point that what we're focusing on here, however, is a definition of more which is based within the character, right? The other way of coming from this question isn't based on what are the defining rules of characters. That you need to have. It's instead want the experience of the fans, so we're going to play a short clip from Patrick's an interview with Patrick Galbraith. The name of the clip is what is Moab phobia, so, but first it defines defines Moise. So listen to that.
Speaker 6
And how they interact with characters in their everyday lives. So when we're talking about money, I think what we're talking about is specifically an effective response to fictional characters. And there's a lot of parts of that that are important. But I'm just gonna focus on a few. So it's an effective response. So someone's responding. What are they responding to? Or they're responding to something. It can be a lot of different things, but it tends to be a manga anime character, right? So it could be a manga anime character in a game, or it could be a manga anime character in a light novel, or it could be a manga anime character as a figurine, or it could be the voice of that manga anime character. But in the world in which, in the sort of field in which I'm interacting with people, they tend to reserve that term for this kind of response, they have the characters so affect meaning, just simply the kind of response, the bodily sort of response, you're sort of being moved by this encounter with another body. So that body that we're talking about is a fictional character is the kind of theoretical frame I'm working with, so for them.
CRAIG NORRIS
I just wasn't there so. Rather than saying it breaks down to this kind of matrix of characteristics, innocence, childishness, protectiveness and cuteness, and a character work it's it's much more a kind of, you know, do you feel a certain emotion towards a character? And again, these feelings would be, you know, a feeling of maybe protectiveness of what were the other characteristics that that could be.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Predictiveness be guy.
CRAIG NORRIS
You'll be guys, you don't have that filled me with the feeling of big eyes.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Is it isn't the whole thing around big eyes is it's meant to elicit a dopamine response when you consume.
CRAIG NORRIS
It I thought it was meant to be a yeah, kind of mother. Well, like a parent child bond that gets triggered biologically.
AHLEY REMMINGA
OK.
CRAIG NORRIS
That that we associate at a kind of.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Because babies got big eyes.
CRAIG NORRIS
That's right, I'm bloody be. Gone, yeah. I don't know why I made it with that emphasis, but no, it's an idea. It's kind of in our reptile brain that trigger of nurturing nurse because of the associations we have. I'm not. A psychologist to. Complete warning there to anyone listening to this.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Yeah, no.
CRAIG NORRIS
That's not clear by the 91 episodes up till now that we. Then.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
So yeah, it's it's, it's like they overdo it in order to elicit a response. So I'm I'm thinking of like when you've got in Studio Ghibli, when characters cry and they got these massive streams of water that come out of their eyes, it's because that is the embodiment of crying.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah. Yeah. And so if you so I. Guess there's two ways of coming at it. One is, you know, yeah, the the this definition we had before which which was, you know, here's the characters. And here's what they do. The other one would be once you start talking with people that like particular types of longer anime or texts and they define certain emotional connections. Then suddenly, that's where that term Moy would be useful to unpack it. I mean, that's kind of what you were gravitating towards as.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Well, actually, yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Are you convinced by that, that approach? To it does.
Speaker
That is that the.
CRAIG NORRIS
A more convincing way of approaching this question and it's.
AHLEY REMMINGA
I I will always side with Patrick Galbraith. Over a YouTube channel. So but.
CRAIG NORRIS
Except if it's media mothership.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Ohh yeah, no 100%.
Speaker
Yes.
AHLEY REMMINGA
100% I should specify medium mothership #1, but yes, no, just Patrick is always you know very good at breaking down these concepts so.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah. Look, I mean and then I do think it's an important distinction to me because you're, I mean, what I think matters here is that, you know, after hearing the rules of creating more. Characters I couldn't rebrand media mothership as like the moire version and assume that people are going to have a protectiveness and love.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Towards me. Your mother? Yeah, my mother.
CRAIG NORRIS
Another ship because you know you can't just, you know, manufacture that in that way it has to happen organically. It has to be something that, you know, and it's really that, you know, that that emotional engagement. And you can, you know, good film makers can manipulate that, but they can never get into it. So you're saying, yeah.
AHLEY REMMINGA
The big eyes, yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
The tears welling up and all of that, you know, in theory should translate to this emotion, but equally it could be mishandled. And suddenly you're laughing at this scene or you're just turned off of the scene. So yeah, we'll, we'll. We'll unpack further aspects of that, I mean. I'm interested I guess in you know, maybe maybe that's Part 2 definition because that gets into this, this, this area of, you know, that's all well and good and it's interesting trying to translate that into the West where these figures are very much engaged with. And almost adult to adult level. Right, you've got, you know, Harry Potter or teenager to teenager level. What if it's, you know, adult to child kind of unpacking. So let's have a look at again, returning to definition one. If we're defining it as core characteristics semiotically over text or character. Want that moare translate says.
Speaker 4
What is Molly Part 2? After last week's episode, we now know what Moe is, so let's talk about what it isn't. Many argue that Moe is an evolution of Dorico, Oregon being the blatant sexualization of young or young looking girls. The correlation.
CRAIG NORRIS
Is that correct? Lolicon is the blatant sexualization of young looking girls.
AHLEY REMMINGA
I would say. So in a pretty. Simplistic way, yes.
CRAIG NORRIS
Because and it comes from, like Lolita complex. And I know there's the book Lolita that came out one in the 1920s or something by the Russian author.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm sorry. I was in Russian. Author. Yes. Russian author. Yes, I was just getting confused because I know Lolly to the clothing does not originate from there. So I was getting lost in this. Yeah, I I originally had that back when I was doing.
CRAIG NORRIS
Question. Ohh really? Right.
AHLEY REMMINGA
My honours and emerald emerald King got really like picky on me, saying no, you can't do that and you know, trust.
CRAIG NORRIS
Emerald. Amazing. I mean, and it's the clothing that we're talking about here that kind of a French maid. I mean, that's a really trivialising reductive way to refer to it, but it's that.
Speaker
2.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah. Yeah, it's got. Some of that, yeah, but there's. Other styles, but yeah. No, well, later, completely different from lolicon, yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right. So that we lead a fashion, do you know anything further? Well, yeah.
AHLEY REMMINGA
I I know that there it's not cosplay and I know it is not related to lolicons so.
Speaker
OK.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Is it related to comic? Con.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yes. Yeah. Well, you do see it at Comic Con. So yes. So it is related.
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I guess that's right, yes. So the definition I've got from the, OK, the chat GP search I did, I should just caution this because what I'm saying is from a search like that, so lolicon in manga and anime refers to the depiction of young, prepubescent. Males in a way that emphasises their infinite innocence and cuteness. So we've already had that as the kind of moistness. But they add to that it's often with a sexualised undertone.
AHLEY REMMINGA
It it can, I would say for lolicon, yes, lolly, by itself is different because it's a character portrayed in that.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah, from the way it is. Right. Way Lottie. So you can have a logic.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Although that would just be just a young character. So how you define it could be different, but Lolly con is that complex, so feeling that attraction and for male at shelter cotton.
CRAIG NORRIS
OK, hold on. So. So, yes, what we're referring to here is Lolita complex. So it's it's a complex, it's it's a kind of. A type of engagement with a character. From a reader? Yeah, or a viewer which has within it a kind of sexualized undertone in terms of how they explain it. What's the other?
AHLEY REMMINGA
One the shelter shelter. What's Shotta shotta is like young boy and then complex.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right, right. And equally what we're talking about here? Yeah, prepubescent characters. So it involves characters who are designed to evoke a sense of attraction or affection, as we defined in Moya. And typically, that's fine. You know, the Dolby character. I can't get him. Go ahead the minions.
AHLEY REMMINGA
And you're gonna turn him into a shotacon now.
CRAIG NORRIS
I feel that might be happening. SMS him now if you want my fan fiction. No, I'm thinking maybe Nemo from Finding Nemo and the minions. Despicable Me, right. They're, they're they. They do have affection as a fan. But the controversial here is the age and portrayal of these characters. So let's let's continue our dive in here.
Speaker 4
Comes from the notion that adult males shouldn't be obsessed with a show like magical Princess Minky Momo or My Little Pony that's aimed towards a young female audience.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah. So that's interesting because I know there was something I was reading even about the rider of Sailor Moon was saying. She just doesn't get why there's a lot of adult male fans and it's not aimed at that audience. It's not intended to be engaged with. And it she doesn't say it's creepy, but as you're reading between the lines, you're thinking, well, clearly, yeah, there's there's a creepiness. Potentially are. On these, the story depicting high school girls and their magical pals.
AHLEY REMMINGA
I think it's just a transformative way of like looking at the text you find meaning in it. Maybe it's this strong females in your life, you're supportive of the feminist message. Maybe it's, you know, you don't like the physical punching, you like the magical element. I think people will read it many different ways and.
CRAIG NORRIS
My Little Pony. Yeah, My Little Pony.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Doesn't have to be creepy yet.
CRAIG NORRIS
Really good storytelling. Yeah, that that Bruni element, that adult engagement element were. You a My Little Pony fan? No.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
I'm a bluey fan.
CRAIG NORRIS
See, there we go. Alright, so mohair and Bluey is pretty strong. I feel like this feeling. I mean, how would you define the maleness of bluey in terms of?
Speaker
Yeah.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, in case of in the case of Bluey and bingo.
CRAIG NORRIS
Innocence and cuteness Blues. Bingo is a character who does what.
Speaker
Yes.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Is is Blues sister?
CRAIG NORRIS
OK, right. What are the ages of Bluey and?
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Ohh, I think it said like 3:00 and 6:00 or 4:00 and 6:00 I think.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah. And it's a kind of nuclear.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Family. Yeah, yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
And the fan fans of blue extend beyond kids watching it and their.
Speaker 6
Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Parents. Yeah, yeah. Example, that was the Bunnings store. Yeah. Sale or something. Did you find a lot of other adults buying the Bunnings window? Was it? It was unknowns.
Speaker
Yes.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Ohh yeah, yeah, yeah. The gnomes. The gnomes. Yeah. The set of four limited edition gnomes. It was only adults that came in and bought them and then fleeced them on the eBay and stuff.
CRAIG NORRIS
Have you fleeced?
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Yours. Yet? No, no, you're saving them. Up as a yeah, still worth $450 each.
CRAIG NORRIS
The time. But because, again, yeah, Bunnings isn't the store associated with toys and kids. I mean, obviously, parents will go there to go shopping and their parents and their kids will be there. And there is, you know, kids play pen and some. Of those stores. But yeah, it is a type of store. Yeah, adults will also.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Japan, you get Akihabara selling anime figures in Australia, you get Bunnings selling. It's our soft power.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. Bunnings. Hmm. OK.
Speaker 4
Less of whether there is any dirty going involved. It's just kind of hard to justify the fixation, and that's where we enter the grey area. However, in my world the two are completely separate things. Molly is simply a trait and a character that you find adorable while loading. Going is wrong.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right. That and that that puts a. Really hard. Full stop. On it in terms of saying you know more air, I mean we can engage with Bluey as as as a Molly text, which I think is is uncontroversial and and and really interesting in terms of the, the, the kind of. Trend age this going through kind of crossover of? Ages that are there. UM, but there there, there is. It's it's, it's all. It's so difficult to. Engage with this space.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah. So it it does get very grey area and unfortunately Australian laws are terrible at addressing the the that sort of grey area between the. Because. There's a lot of federal police the the, a lot of it comes around the Customs Act of 1901. Yeah, Australian federal law.
CRAIG NORRIS
In Australia, the National 1 Australian Customs Act 1901. So we're talking like Federation era.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah, it it's gone through. Yeah. It's gone through a few revisions, but it's still extremely outdated in which the border force determines whether you've broken a law or not, bringing, you know, content into the country. It's enforced by the AFP nowadays, with the Internet, the E Safety Commissioner. Also gets involved and you have the independent jurisdiction. But all of this. Is also meant to be under the classification Board, which is outlined in that act and.
CRAIG NORRIS
So there's two things. So the first thing is the border force. So this is the the classic kind of border Security TV show that you will watch where normally they're busting, you know, someone bringing in something that has like a lot of ants.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yes. Yes.
CRAIG NORRIS
In it because. Wooden totem pole from Papa New Guinea or someone that's brought in like like a kilogramme of raw eggs. Yeah, that that's in some kind of plastic container. I was like, oh, I didn't know this.
Speaker
Yeah.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
The problem they're also going to bust you for a comic.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Book. Yeah. So if you've got, like, your secret stash of doujins cheese, like you could get busted.
Speaker
At that point.
AHLEY REMMINGA
But yeah, no, it has happened.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right, people have come in through this country and put on the sex offenders list because the border security officers determined that this, you know, comic book that's coming in from.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Let's say Japan, they've felt that is portraying young previous characters in a sexualized.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Context, yeah, absolutely. And the the really frustrating thing about the law is that all.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Please.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Jurisdictions are really bad at negotiating the grey area, but the classification board is probably the best handle at adapting and considering that nuance.
CRAIG NORRIS
So the classification Board, this is what for movies and video games will have like a A PG.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yep.
CRAIG NORRIS
Classification and M classification MA. So they're also going to act potentially within.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Munger they can react, there's three classifications for books, and I need to do a disclosure here because I am an accredited and authorised reviewer for the Classification Board. I got my my I got the confirmation email This morning. So yes.
CRAIG NORRIS
Really. That's fantastic. Have you really? You're kidding. So yes. Yeah, cause this has been a mystery to many people out there in terms of who is it that determine what is your role? Are you what part of that?
AHLEY REMMINGA
Group that determines. So I I could theoretically do that. I I went for it because I was sort of researching this space of where the grey areas and the law says around this sort of material.
CRAIG NORRIS
Classification.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Lately, and I wanted to get more of an inside look of how they determine all that and it comes down to six elements. Sorry I'm going.
CRAIG NORRIS
My mind is blowing. How did you apply for this position? Just the website like I know we've got.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah, you just go to their website, you send them an email saying I would like to do this, they send you. They enrol you in a course and you do a course. You have to pass at a certain degree so to be a authorised person you have to get 80%. You have to be 90% if you want to be accredited.
CRAIG NORRIS
In terms of correct answers on a multiple Choice questionnaire.
AHLEY REMMINGA
You have to sit a there's about 20 questions, multiple choice and then they actually show about 10 clips and you have to say, OK, this is where it's rated. This is what I observed. These were the the stuff you have to pay attention to everything.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right, so this should be like you'd point.
AHLEY REMMINGA
And it's.
CRAIG NORRIS
Breaches of some, like the amount of skin that gets shown.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah. So it'll be like, OK, based on the skin showed, where would this fall between, you know, G to, you know, all the way up to R rated because they don't permit beyond R rated, so ex or refused classification? Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
It's not allowed in Australia.
AHLEY REMMINGA
So it's just those five categories. They that that we're familiar with and what they base it on is they've got 6 elements in which they make assessments on which is violence, any sort of sexual imagery. Nudity.
CRAIG NORRIS
So violence would just be like, like Chuck Norris action movie. Sorry, that's a weird.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah, the gun violence. Yeah, but it can also. And this is one thing for those who want to sit the test. Now, sexual sexual violence also falls under violence. And same with, like domestic and coercion. And some of that, although coercion could also fall under one of the.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah. Share with me.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Other elements here, but yeah. Then you have sex, which is just pure, like, you know, sexual contact. It might be. It doesn't have to be full, like, you know, sexual scenes, but even things like groping or things like that. It could be for wonder. Then there's nudity, which is separate from sex. So. The idea of separating the two is say if you've got like a bath scene or something, yeah. Or like a comedy **** scene or something. Umm. So it's not sexual in nature. It might be for other reasons. Then drugs are another factor.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right. Oh yeah. Yeah.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Language so swear words and then themes which is a broad element. And then there's mitigating factors which help determine. So they've got these six elements. They're factoring in mitigating factors. There's so much there that it's like the test alone took me way, way too long to do it. Took me a. Full day of. Of like thinking about it and having to look and go, is this right? Is that right? It is quite a full on test so don't go in thinking oh, I can just pass it. No problem. No, it's it is full on. But yeah. No, that's why they've actually really equipped it. Determining these factors, but how our system is set up under this act and under a lot of the laws, it means you've got about 7-8 different jurisdictions conflicting with each other.
CRAIG NORRIS
My jurisdictions, you're meaning like the Federal Australian Government, then you got Tasmania.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yes.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
At a state level.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Like between states, you have different laws, so like most states for lolicon for instance. We we have this no rule. Anything under anything under 18 is illegal. Then you've got like Queensland and I think another state which is like ohh between you know 16 to 18 is fine.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right. So even if there's sexualized content portraying.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah. Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Character that's aged between 6 and 18, for example.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah. And this is for animated characters as well I should specify. And so you get that sort of legal and then it can be legal under Queensland law, but not under federal law. Ohh wow. So yeah, you get all these, like, really conflicting laws. And so it is a mess to navigate and it would just be so much easier if everyone just took a step back and left it to look classification. Good, because they are really good at determining these sorts of things.
CRAIG NORRIS
In terms of the manual, I guess the information that's there, the clarity of the semiotic unpacking.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yes. So they look at it and they go OK for because one of my thoughts. Was The Simpsons movie when Bart Simpson is skateboarding? There's a scene with his genitalia out and you go why is this PG rated or or what I think it's PG in Australia. Why is it that that's OK, but like, isn't that?
CRAIG NORRIS
Mines. Yes, yes.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Where it falls into some of this. Grey area and.
Speaker
Right.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Under all those other jurisdictions, there is a high likelihood it would fall into criminal stuff, but the classification board can say no. It's an animated joke deliberately set up with all this previous context. It's only in like this like 1 less than a second. Clip and it's intended for a comedic reason. It's not a sexualized reason, and therefore we can determine it is not a part of this sort of lolicon, shotacon ***********.
CRAIG NORRIS
And that would be mitigating circumstances.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah, absolutely. So that's why the classification board is really good at determining things like that. And like, say a lot of like, Totoro, when you're in the bath scene and where you've got an adult bathing with children not in a sexual way, just a cultural context.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah.
AHLEY REMMINGA
The classification board can look at it and go. Yeah, that's makes sense. And then once the classification board looks at it, it deregulates it and and makes it more accessible. Once it's classified, it falls under the law of acceptable. So with a lot of this context in Australia, it's a lot more simple when left to be for it. It's just typical Australian governments get over complicating things.
CRAIG NORRIS
Wow. In terms of the States and well, that's interesting.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Well, yeah, sorry, sorry. I went on a bit of a tangent, but I I felt it was important to bring up.
CRAIG NORRIS
Let's listen to this now. This is the is lolicon lolly legal in the United States now? Ashley's done a great job unpacking in Australia. What I like about this ad is it's a legit. It's legal professionals saying, you know, have you been busted for lolicon?
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
So this is a.
CRAIG NORRIS
Legit call me now and he breaks down again. This confusion. Yeah. Saying in the US, I imagine it's far worse because of state power being quite a bit stronger than. Federal power, right?
AHLEY REMMINGA
I imagine free speech would also be something.
CRAIG NORRIS
So. So let's listen to this and then obviously it's not gonna speak to the Australian case, but it is an interesting kind of example of, I guess the the commonness of this issue where someones brought something into the country and realised now they're busted anyway.
AHLEY REMMINGA
That.
CRAIG NORRIS
I think it starts soon.
Speaker 7
I'm criminal defence attorney Michael Becker Lali is Japanese manga or anime that depicts underage characters in a sexually explicit way. Federal law prohibits lowly possession if one the depiction of the underage person is obscene or lacking serious value. And two, the lowly was transmitted through the mail, Internet or common carrier, or was transported across state lines. Or there are indications that you intended to sell or distribute it. Therefore, if you possess a large amount of lolly, prosecutors will probably presume you intended to sell it in violation of federal law. And unless you created the images yourself, it would not be difficult for prosecutors to prove that you unlawfully obtain the materials over the Internet or through them. Meanwhile, different states have different laws regarding if and under what circumstances LOLI is illegal. In our experience, we may be able to get lolly related criminal charges dropped by arguing that the cartoons are protected by the 1st amendments guarantee of freedom of expression. If you have an outstanding warrant or have been arrested in California, contact the attorneys of Shahs Law Group will fight to get your charges reduced or dismissed.
CRAIG NORRIS
Again. I do like how he says it as like Lolly.
AHLEY REMMINGA
I I cannot get past how static he comes across it. It broke me. I just.
CRAIG NORRIS
I don't know if I'd feel in safe hands. No, but look, I mean, it does speak to the point that. This, this, this material there has to be great care in terms of the engagement with this material and if you're a research student such as yourself, actually, yeah. Part of the decision making I guess going on is how how you can unpack this. You know the the kind of cultural and social headache. That's presenting itself at the moment. How have you? So you've engaged and now become you're engaged with with learning and passing the test to become part of the classification board?
Speaker
Yes. Yes. Do you?
CRAIG NORRIS
Will you get like is it like Batman, you get called up at some point?
AHLEY REMMINGA
I I think it it's more of an elect in so like I've got access to a portal which I I think I can access other stuff and be like, yes I'll do this.
CRAIG NORRIS
Saying, you know.
AHLEY REMMINGA
But I I have no intention of doing that. If you asked me like 5 years ago, I would have said this was my dream job.
CRAIG NORRIS
Volunteer do you get paid? For it, I don't.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Know. I don't know. That's why I I basically I wanted to go into understand a lot more of how the decisions are made. The six elements really unpacked, really, really great. I've got modules downloaded which they've encouraged. They've encouraged to download them.
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah.
AHLEY REMMINGA
And have a copy, but I've got them downloaded so I can understand.
CRAIG NORRIS
And these are modules.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Which, like unpack some of those. Yeah, the the six elements, so they they unpack like violence. What is violence? What isn't? How are they classified? They've got the list of swear words from things like bum being potential.
CRAIG NORRIS
4. 20 right.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Actually, like you know, she raided.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right. Yeah, if. Yeah, if you hear this, do you as a classifier need to now indicate on the box that this is Gee, but it has occasional swear words?
Speaker
Yeah.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah. Yeah. Right. How the sort of things and how you write or even the how you write on the classification like Gee and then it's like parental guidance is recommended for younger? Viewers or something on the the box art and that. So like they they teach you all that but.
CRAIG NORRIS
Which one's your favourite? Sorry.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah. My favourite of the six elements.
CRAIG NORRIS
It's a crude way of putting I'm trying. Yeah, maybe not favourite maybe. Most. It's not enjoyable back is there is there?
AHLEY REMMINGA
Add. The six themes I I think themes is definitely the most interesting because.
CRAIG NORRIS
Right. That could be like a cult themes.
AHLEY REMMINGA
It can be stuff like that horror. If there's horror and high suspense. And a lot of those sorts of imagery, it's also got many other mitigating factors and stuff that you know, if you've got like a movie about extreme homophobia, for instance, it would fall more under the the themes than any of the others. So. Yeah, very interesting.
CRAIG NORRIS
Do you get a badge?
AHLEY REMMINGA
I don't think I'm meant to get anything, but I did get a a print out saying yes I'm authorised, so I've got a PDF so I'm thinking about framing a.
CRAIG NORRIS
I think you could frame it. Yeah. No.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah. Point in your mind.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah, yeah. Is it like crowd sourcing it like like you put in like you could, could you choose like, if there's a video game coming out soon or? A movie you could say.
AHLEY REMMINGA
I I can't do video.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Exactly what you're doing because you've tried so long to get into the movie reviewing business, you're trying to be able to watch movies and classify them. That's what you're doing.
AHLEY REMMINGA
But I. I can't do video games at the moment. Ohh how come? Because that's a different module so I I've actually signed up to it, I just haven't had the time to complete it. Hopefully it's not too different so I can go through it a bit quicker, but yes there is another module.
CRAIG NORRIS
Really you have to go through a whole lot of. Right, right. I don't know video games. It's such a different genre in terms of like it's open form and some gamers won't even engage with a particular scene. And this is, you know, Australia has such a horror well.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Such a reputation for so long as being a very draconian state for our country, for video and clustering.
AHLEY REMMINGA
And I'm not a current accredited person for that, so I can take a step back and say it wasn't me.
CRAIG NORRIS
So OK, so.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Do they? Do they go through the same classification for music as well?
AHLEY REMMINGA
Music I I'm not 100% sure because music does have its own classification, as does books have 3 categories. I think televisions now being moved into film, but it's not being offered at the moment. Other than that, I'm not sure, so yeah, well.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
MHM.
Speaker
It'd be.
CRAIG NORRIS
Fascinating to have you back in the future to hear if you've engaged with. Any actual do you do you have a disclosure? Can you just close anything you can?
AHLEY REMMINGA
I I I can't talk. I I know I really. Ohh just just based on my own knowledge that I really shouldn't be talking about films that are not out and all that. And so I won't talk about that. But really my whole purpose.
Speaker
Sort of.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Doing that was to understand where these lines are drawn, especially in relation to anime and manga, and when discussing lolicon and. Comparing it back to Molay and being able to say the classification board can easily distinguish between something that is, you know, a lolicon piece of media and moan media in Australia.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yes, because yeah. And as we've we've unpacked here, we've been able to identify some Western text My Little Pony. I'll be yeah.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
I knew it.
CRAIG NORRIS
Dobby, of course. The minions, bluey. Yeah, I think Blues are really useful. One to, to show how harmless this category is and how universal and engaged in the Western space it is as well.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Louise.
Speaker
And.
CRAIG NORRIS
However, however, I guess if we're defining it outside of those character traits into the emotions you feel towards a character. Then yeah, it's it's. It's a kind of under research space that affects theory space in terms of, you know, obviously psychology has a long history of then unpacking what emotional states mean.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah. There there's a.
CRAIG NORRIS
And how to logically?
AHLEY REMMINGA
Current ongoing longitude study into anime and manga, which I think in the last version which was this year's one, they've actually asked a bit about your emotional response to characters.
CRAIG NORRIS
And that here we're talking about. Yeah. Do you feel like feelings of anger? And and and I guess it shows like you need a level of emotional intelligence to understand what emotions you're experiencing. Because I think most people don't have. Well, not sorry. That's a very broad I I think for some it could be very challenging to to explain their emotions, right. It's like, you know, well, how did this make you feel? What do? Pain. You know, I felt good. It's like, no, no, no. Did you have elevated heart rate? Did you have, you know, a tensing of the hand, like a feeling of anger, right. I mean, just that kind of illiteracy around emotions and affect seems to be less understood than, again, it's much easier to explain more in terms of. Well, here's. His big eyes, his character that has a quirky trait. He's a character that that's innocent because of how they're behaving. Yet by saying, you know, and then that makes me feel protective of them, much more difficult to unpack that feel. Playing. Yeah. Which which is. What we're going to do now on medium mothership next month exploration. Well, look, I'm fascinated, Ashley. It's a shame that we're now nearly at the hour and you've dropped this huge.
AHLEY REMMINGA
I've deliberately left. It because I wanted to see your reaction.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah.
Speaker
Yeah, well, I.
CRAIG NORRIS
Feel like we've got someone on the inside of the industry now what? We're gonna change your voice obviously in future shows. Well, not not your voice to some kind of dialect type being.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
You're gonna cry, though, aren't you?
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah, right now actually.
Speaker
Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
So no one will know it's you and we'll get you to take us through some of the work.
AHLEY REMMINGA
You do, I I. Don't think I do any work.
CRAIG NORRIS
Well, the hilarious thing is this is just an offshoot of the. Fact you're doing a PhD. Research project. Yes, on what is it gender?
AHLEY REMMINGA
Gender bending and may and may amonga.
CRAIG NORRIS
That's right. And transphobia is. Still an aspect within that.
AHLEY REMMINGA
So it's all to do with understanding how gender diverse people. I guess the effect they get from gender bending anime and monger, and that so unpacking how. People identify with the characters, identify with the series, reject the series you know? Do they find it offensive? Those sorts of things. And this is all come up while looking at it and become a bit of a side project.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yes. It's so interesting to me because that moec category of of it, then arousing in someone a feeling of protectiveness if you're cosplaying as a more character, you know, innocent. Then how do you handle someone then behaving towards you in world as wanting to protect you or to like a puppy? Hug you? Right. I mean, there's this whole aspect of permission which would be really difficult to translate.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah, there there definitely needs to be more work unpacking even narrative structures. And like how Moe's constructed in.
CRAIG NORRIS
That, but I guess part of the interesting thing here is and we're going to buy it into a little bit of Kpop unlimited, right?
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Yeah, no worries. I haven't even got any. Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Let's do another. Aladdin is is how? Yeah. Part of what was interesting to hear about your journey here, Ashley, is that it's also about setting limits on your research, right. In terms of what? What limits? Because you can't just write forever. And and you found that useful in terms of knowing now more clearly what aspects of. Cosplay and texts you're looking at.
AHLEY REMMINGA
I pretty much I would say solely basically focus on gender identity and maybe a bit on sexuality, but. You know, I I going offshoot to talk about, I guess, feminism and how the regulation under the under the law impacts based on this sort of more fan fiction media and. All that so. I have basically set my boundaries of. There's so much really cool pop culture stuff that I would love to talk about. Like stuff like Lego and things like that. But I cannot do it. My research has to have a boundary. Let's keep it to Japanese pop culture.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah, yeah. Well, I I I do feel. Yeah, this this aspect of more we will return to in the future. It's an interesting because it's it's a term based on affect. It feels right. So I think you're right in terms of referring to Patrick Galbraith's definition saying. It's it's as you're talking about whether you liked a movie or a character or, you know, I'm thinking even fast food franchises like McDonald's or something. Ronald, do you like Ronald McDonald had this or the grimace character and the grimace shake, for instance, right? Like, my kid wanted the grimace shake. Thinking part of that was a MOAR response, right? It's grimace. The character design of Grimace. He's kind. I don't know. It doesn't instil mowing this true. Yeah. Yeah. And TikTok might be very moer based at moments. I think it's. But anyway, I think it's it's it's provide again. It's that kind of difficulty of talking with emotional intelligence about feelings and and does popular culture help us develop a a language around it.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
That was a TikTok response to that. Particular 1 so.
CRAIG NORRIS
And also recognise that there are barriers to that, like we can like the. The slide from Moet to Lolicon is a transgression.
Speaker
Which?
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah. We won't go into it now with 502 time. OK, this has been media mothership for another week. I I'm really fascinated by malware, so we'll put some show notes in there. We'll come back to it later. Thanks everyone for listening. This has been doctor Craig. League I've been joined by Lord Taylor, right, and talking about how you can apply online for qualifications. Yeah, it does feel like you should apply for this now as well, because of course your you became the Lord. Yeah. Through the Internet, you became an ordained priest through the through the Internet.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Yeah, exactly.
AHLEY REMMINGA
Yeah, you're also an ordained.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Person hey.
CRAIG NORRIS
Are you also an ordained priest? Did you?
AHLEY REMMINGA
I technically, I mean a pastor for the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Yeah, I'm a pastafarian, so yeah.
Speaker 6
Ohh, he just wants.
CRAIG NORRIS
To get it to you really.
Speaker
Wow. Wow. Wow.
CRAIG NORRIS
Yeah. See, I only hear about those things never act upon it. You've actually acted upon joining up. So yeah, actually wonderful to have you on again in terms. Now the revelation that you're also a priest or an ordained a pastor. From from that church as well as now a card carrying classifier.
AHLEY REMMINGA
I don't have a card for that one, but I have got a card for. The the priest.
CRAIG NORRIS
Or a PDF holding member of the Australian Classification Board. So keep listening now coming up, maybe keep up.
Speaker
Yeah.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Will I just need to get some? Music together, OK.
CRAIG NORRIS
It might be then, if we can. Get the music together for.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
Yeah.
CRAIG NORRIS
Keep listening to his radio show. Notes will be available on YouTube and Twitch, as well as your podcast provider of choice. You're going to get the system back up to play some great music, having various revelations and epiphanies.
TAYLOR LIDSTONE
You should have been doing that before when we were talking.
CRAIG NORRIS
All right, so keep listening on stage radio.
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