Tag: media history

Craig Welcome here to Edge Radio 99.3 FM with Craig as your host joined as always by Taylor. What’s up Co host and this is now media mothership on media mothership. We explore how. Media and popular culture changes and shapes our world around us. In particular, I think the last week’s episode, which we did on Cyberpunk had a fantastic thumbnail image for its YouTube and podcast, not really reacting with genuine. After an emotion so. Speaker Yeah. Craig That’s all real, of course, because we are streaming on YouTube and Twitch. If you wanna see a video of us sitting here talking, you can jump onto the YouTube and Twitch. Let us know if the video audio is working. Last week we ran without audio. Taylor No. Craig And then we still got a couple of views. So I don’t know what that says about our audio. But do let us know if the audio isn’t. Working audio is. Certainly, but how will they? Speaker Use. Craig Know well because they can then go to the FM signal if they’re within the Hobart metropolitan area. Taylor OK. Yeah. But if they’ve already logged into this, then they’re like Ohh Craig’s just balled it up again. Craig Yeah. Then they log into youedgeradio.org dot AU. Wow. Taylor But they might not do. Craig Fine. Yes, they won’t. Speaker 4 Hear this, which is a shame. Taylor Exactly. Speaker 4 But they would already. Craig Be fans of media mothership knowing. Then we also go. Off on the live stream on. Medium mothership sorry edgeradio.org dot yes. Speaker You. Craig We’re also on the DAB. So feel free to audience interact with us on our SMS 0488811707 or post a comment on the Twitch or YouTube live stream, yeah. Let’s hit the songs. That’s beautiful. Thank you so much. Should I put both of your mics on? I wonder? You got kind of a stereotype happening there. Yeah. OK, good. Right. So today’s topic. We are going back in time to 1995. Taylor No, just this one. Craig Oh yes, I came across. Taylor The year of my birth. Craig I. Ohh great what auspicious state? That was the year I completed my honours thesis. Looking at the irresponsible images of cyberpunk in Japanese animation, and I came across recently as I was cleaning up my. You know, huge archive of a library. One of the magazines I used to do my research with. Speaker 4 Well that. Craig Was this one? Yeah, we’ll hold that up to the camera. So this is comics and interviews 1995, issue 148. And this is at the cusp of anime kind of entering the western market, so I’ve been. Kind of uploading my honest thesis to the media mothership website. Wow. So you know, people are gonna get so excited by this episode. They can go and read the honest thesis that that, you know, was part of the background research. But we’re going to spend this article looking at the first article. We’re going to spend this show looking. At the first article. In that magazine, which is speculating on the future, the current 1995 business structure of manga and anime in the US, and what the near future holds. Taylor As it says, what is anime and why is everybody talking about? Craig Yeah, so here it is. Taylor No, if you don’t know what anime is, you probably call it a. Craig 9 or something like that. Well, *** animation was the term. There was awkwardly used. Yeah, up until this point. So this is 30 years ago, so it’s 2/20/25 now, so it’s an opportune moment to look back 30 years ago as to what was this. Kind of, you know, quite quite significant cultural change, which was about to hit, I guess, just to put context, you know, put people in context. A quick snapshot of what 1995 was about, right. You’re you’re looking in terms of what the Internet meant in 1995. You you only had dial-up, so it was that classic modem sound sound. Google didn’t exist. Taylor No, no. Craig Of course, you know it was very limited. It was, you know, you’ve got universities have it. Some homes have it, but not everyone was at all engaged with the Internet. Well, you had really, there weren’t any smartphones in 95, right, or at least not in my in my space, 95 was not a a kind of. I mean they were. They were smart furs, but they were really expensive. Taylor Really. Craig It wasn’t. It wasn’t a really smartphone era. Taylor No, I’m talking flip phone. Craig Yeah, I mean, I do remember I got a phone, I got a phone, an old phone in like, 96. But it was super very expensive. Here’s the one. Yeah. I mean, you had to pay for SMS calls. Yeah, right. It was incredibly expensive. Taylor Click on that smile. Yeah, he he is. For me. Oh no, that was that was when I was alive. You. Had to pay for SMS calls or or. Craig Alright, still into your age? Yeah. Taylor Or dollar per minute, sort of. Craig Thing. Yeah, I mean, I mean mainly you, you just use landline still there wasn’t social media, social media was not a thing. And in terms of entertainment, we’re looking at, you know particularly access to anime. It was either. Bootleg stuff. So you go to your local anime club at a university or some mates. House and you just watched bootleg VHS tapes that were on these mail order catalogues you could grab, and they’re all fan subtitled. And it was super niche, right? The the kind of anime access was was very narrow. There was, you know, previous that Astro Boy battle for the planet Kimber. The white line that had been on television. Many people didn’t really flock to those as being a distinctive Japanese experience. In fact, many people didn’t know they came from Japan. Taylor Yeah. Craig So of course, today we have a very different landscape. You know, you’ve got streaming, you’ve got Crunchyroll streaming all the anime. You’ve got cons which are set up specifically on anime cosplayers. So it’s it’s a radically different environment. You know, back then you were basically looking at TV schedules to figure out if SBS was going to show an anime movie. Speaker Hmm. Craig This wouldn’t be 95. I mean SBS started to broadcast. And they, you know, I think probably late 90s anyway. So it was a much more niche space. It wasn’t on demand and binge watching as it is today. So it’s it’s a radically radically different environment. Which is why the environment was kind of filled with images like this. We’ll we’ll play a short clip from Manga Entertainment. This was their cyberpunk, cyberpunk, cyberpunk cyberpunk collection promotion, right, tying into last week’s discussion of Cyberpunk 2077. Taylor Flunk. Craig This is their pitch. This was 1995, so this is the turntable came out. This is the Cyberpunk collection promotion which gives you a taste of how anime was being marketed as a type of subversive, risky, futuristic experience that wasn’t at all. The cartoons you’re watching. Taylor At home, yeah. Craig All right. Taylor Nice. Speaker 4 Yeah, any moment now. Taylor Do do, do, do do. Just talk amongst. Yourselves. Ohh, here we go. Here we go. Here we go. That we’re still not going. You can’t help digging. Craig Yeah. No, it’s it’s yeah. Chest is loading up. Speaker 5 As a team, sooner than you imagine. Presents you with the. A hyper reality experience that will reload your mind. 3 Series 9 episodes hard data, unlimited information, easy Access the Cyberpunk collection. Get. Ready for them? Cyber City Oedo 808 data one to three hard hitting criminals turn cops come up against some real mean cases in a bid to reduce their sentences. It can only mean action all the way to suicides. 80 police one to three, the police force of the future has its hands full, keeping crazy sideboards on control, especially when they look this cute. Don’t. Speaker 6 Watch it and squeamish. Speaker You can give me what Alice used to. Get me do that. Speaker 5 Genocide in three mind-blowing hearts when a nutty professor plays with powers beyond his control, you can always be sure something’s gonna happen. Well, it doesn’t happen any weirder than this unbelievable entertainment. The Cyberpunk collection downloaded on video the future now. Craig Alright, so that’s manga entertainments. Pitch for, you know, download the future on VHS. Taylor Yeah. Craig Now, so you know, it’s throwing in this kind of assortment of future terms like download. Taylor Yeah, but. Craig Very much based in this kind of mid 90s non Internet based experience of you know you. Speaker 4 Download it to your VHS, yeah. Speaker Which is. Craig So what I want to do now is with that in mind, right? So that’s this idea of, you know mid 90s introducing manga and anime. Let’s I’ve I’ve converted the article to audio using Clipchamp and an AI voice. So yeah, full acknowledgement that I. Just did it to me really. Taylor Did did you type it in or did you use sort of like AI vision to make the words? Craig Great. I scanned it and then I did OCR and I mean I could. Taylor OK. Scammed. Yeah. Craig Get you to read it, but. No, let’s not. Yeah. So. Taylor I prefer to hear the. Speaker 4 What? Taylor Voice of well hear. Craig How disastrous the AI is, and then we might change our mind. So here it is. So this is what we’ll do is we’ll go through like I do in my tutorials, paragraph by paragraph, breaking it down and analysing what it gets right, what it gets wrong about what it’s foreseeing in the future. What shed some insight into? You. What media consumption was like back then and kind of, you know what, it underestimates all these? Taylor Questions. So who? Who’s speaking? Craig Now this is so this article, it’s weird. This article isn’t attributed to an author right, but I was reading through it and I reckon this is a kind of promotion piece for one of the main US anime distributors at the time. Taylor Hmm. Craig They’re called video comics coming out of. I think it’s streamlined entertainment back then, most of the companies it’s referring to have been brought up or become something else some. Taylor Yeah, I’m. I I I meant the AI voice. Craig Of them, yeah. It’s not Davis. It’s not Davis. It’s not Davis. They’ve updated their AI voices so sadly not Davis, but yeah, this is an unattributed article via. Taylor Well, it says it says on the front. David Anthony Crafts Comics interview, so maybe it’s David. Craig No, that’s the editor of the magazine. And there is an editorial in that is an editorial in there but not there. Alright, let’s start with paragraph 11 is anime and why is everybody talking about it from 1995 comics interviews issue 148. Taylor Then maybe he wrote. Too. Speaker All right. Do that. Speaker 8 Why is everybody talking about it? Issue 140, eight, 1995? Over the past few years? Animation produced for the Japanese domestic. Market, known as anime, has been finding its way onto shelves in comic books, specialty retail shops, and video stores throughout the country. It is a business which has evolved out of an underground, unlicensed movement to bring this material into the states by the vanity duplication, red bootlegging of imported anime laser discs. The material which has surfaced. Has remained for the most part, niche product, which augments the imported manga Japanese comics. An occasional imported video game, which makes its way West. The potential for mainstream exposure to anime will be put to the test by several factors, including the syndicated television release of Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball, as well as upcoming video releases by mainstream distribution entities such as Sony Polygram and Orion Pictures. There are rumours that Marvel may even be considering. Entering into this field, Sony is launching its effort in. Speaker 4 Alright, I will. Craig The and I’ll pause it. There. So that’s OK. So that’s. This was first two paragraphs of I mean anything there that that rings a bell of familiarity to you. You were born on 95. So this isn’t part of your lived experience. No. This was the world you were born into that it’s prophesizing that, umm, you know we’ve got Sailor Moon and Dragonball around the corner which is going to possibly be the. I mean this is the US market. So the strain market is slightly different, but I think you know certainly in terms of explaining the contemporary environment, it’s much more globalised today. So we’ve got Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball. We’ve got companies like Sony, Polygram, Orion Pictures and Marvel. Anything leap off the page to you and say, Oh yes, I know. Taylor That well, the thing that immediately leaps off the page when it was read out to me was. Anime laser discs. Craig That is old fashion, isn’t it? Laser disc have. You ever used watched laser? Taylor No, I don’t know. What it is? Craig Ohh right lazy. This is a fantastic they came out kind of the next quantum leap up from VHS tapes. Yeah, it’s meant to offer a more crisper digital image the size you could get them in will record sizes. So there were huge the size of an LP record. Speaker Hmm. Taylor Right. OK. Craig And you would normally need to get like 2 discs, 2 play an entire movie out. Of. They were quite clunky. They were prone to scratch and. Taylor Yeah. Craig They they only had a tiny market in Australia. I know when I went to when I was living in Sydney, I often go to the Chinatown video stores and they’d have laser discs. You could get of Hong Kong Action Cinema. So I’d often pick up a laser disc from them. And because I was in student accommodation with some Hong Kong students, they’d have laser discs they’d. Speaker Hmm. Taylor Yeah. Craig Brought home or brought back from Hong Kong, so it wasn’t really an Australian market. But yeah, look, I mean this and also the US market, at least the discs. So it’s not really a UK, Australian experience industry. Taylor Yeah. Craig Yeah. So that’s that’s wonderfully dated. Yeah, the, the, the laser disc anime, laser disc space. The great thing about those laser discs were was that they they did get the you got the full art covers. So just like people love records for their arts because they’re so large and the. The art can really pop seam with the laser discs, right compared to a a little crummy VHS box. The laser disc presentation was was was gorgeous, yeah, but super expensive. Taylor So this is Marvel is that that’s not what’s it called Marvel, that’s not US. Craig That was that was you just Marvel. There was Marvel Comics, right? So this is, you know, I mean, Marvel went through a number of hiccups but was still considered one of the big media players in terms of, you know, certainly. I mean it was, it was this with DC superhero comic producer. Taylor Novels. OK. Craig Marvel hadn’t done much in terms of animation. A couple of projects, but it wasn’t successful. But nevertheless, yeah. It’s it’s Marvel’s interest in manga was seen as one of these moments of wow, a big US comic book publisher is considering entering the comic book space. Yeah, none of that of course happened. I mean, it’s a bit right and wrong. I mean, Sailor Moon, you’re familiar with Sailor Moon? Did you ever experience anything to do with? Taylor Never, never watched any of it, but of it. And I’ve seen pictures. Craig Of it, right? So it completely missed. Taylor You yeah. Craig Yeah, I mean it. Was on Australian TV for a bit. And you know in 95 it launched in Canada as a syndicated cartoon show and then to the US at the end of 95 and it made it its way to the UK and Australia and was part of the the kind of morning, the school morning and afternoon cartoon blocks. Speaker Hmm. Taylor I mean, it might have been when I was, like, conscious, but yeah, pretty pretty much my thing was between 2004 and 2012 is what I remember since for being. Craig Look it. Yeah, yeah. And look, Salamine didn’t become. Taylor A child. Craig The big success? That was prophesised in terms of it was successful, but it wasn’t a huge cultural phenomena that again, you know they they point to Dragon Ball as the next. Taylor Yeah. Craig Possible cab off the rank that’s going to create a huge swell and mainstream manga and enemy interest that is a little stronger. Dragon Ball Z gained quite a larger following and again launched in 95. It did struggle initially with low ratings. Taylor Yeah. Craig But has still ticked over what’s considered a mediocre success. Yes, it’s interesting as I’m reading through this article that the the big success isn’t mentioned. Which is Pokemon. Oh, yeah, yeah, right. So Pokemon didn’t come on the scene until 98 in terms of its animation run, and you can really see there what? What? What? It took to become successful, right? That yes, while Dragon Ball and salmon are are mainstream successful properties, they weren’t at the level of Pokémon and it’s kind of huge machine of success across video games. Plushies, cartoons and you know, the fact that pretty much everyone’s heard of Pokémon. Taylor Hmm. Craig You know, in a way beyond, you know, I’ve seen an image. Of Sailor Moon. Yeah. Experience. So the real success that they’re hoping for doesn’t come until at least after 98, you know, in the US you have those kind of syndicated or those kind of compilation cartoon shows for kids called. Tsunami, which was much like cartoon connection or Agro’s cartoon show or. Taylor All of these, which I’ve never. Craig Within. Yeah, I mean it’s state by state, right, in Australia, I’m not sure what test he had in terms of like some shows after you come home from school, there’d be a host that would introduce cartoons. Taylor Heard of? Yeah. Watch roller coaster. Speaker 4 That you’d. Craig OK, roller coaster here, except it’s that you know I had. Yeah. Ohh, yeah. TV, right. Yeah. So those would. Those are the moments in the strain market, those curated experiences, that would then hype and introduce animation. Taylor Chase TV. Craig Those which made that successful change, but that wasn’t, yeah, that wasn’t this 95 period, nor the initial years after 95. It really didn’t reach into that success. And certainly in terms of Sailor Moon and Dragonball Z, you know both. Both were were middling successes. They’re fondly remembered, but it wasn’t in terms of how the articles kind of setting up the the the big hope for success. Taylor They’re still relatively well known. Craig Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a small I mean a small clip in terms of you know, so this is what this is a short another short example from another Saturday anime promo from 95. This is from the US channel. I think it’s it’s the Sci fi channel in 1995, so this gives you an example of what the promotion was for anime in 1995 in America for their site site. Taylor On the Sci Fi channel, yeah. Speaker 6 This fall, Saturday mornings on the Sci Fi channel, it’s Japanese animation in the raw and this ain’t no swim in the. People being urge anime that’s pure power and sheer genius. Saturday anime on the Sci Fi Channel coming this fall. Speaker 7 See ready to receive this sacrifice? Craig So it’s a little more salacious. Yeah, you know, it’s. Speaker Hey. Craig Very much that kind of coming in. Taylor Animated television doesn’t have to be for kids anymore. Speaker Yeah. Speaker 4 That’s it, yeah. Craig Yeah. And I guess that’s the market they’re trying to open up. Yeah, it’s not just the children’s experience anymore. It’s it’s adult and risky. Anyway, jumping back to. Speaker The article? Yep. Speaker 8 Animated version of Street Fighter Two offered at an extreme selfie price point, Polygram has taken on the distribution of the US branch of a UK company, manga Entertainment and Orion. Home video has entered the picture by making an output deal with streamlined pictures to serve as the distribution arm of streamlined video comics library. Each of these distribution companies has a different approach in attempting to bring this material to the mass. Speaker 4 Sorry. Speaker 8 Market Sony and Polygram are handling the video distribution as a traditional music company distributor. Orion, on the other hand, has concentrated on distributing streamlined video comics as a traditional video distributor. Craig There. So it’s interesting. The reference to manga and attainment so. Manga. I mean the the Australian experience of manga and anime was really heavily defined through the success the US. Manga anime import companies had, like in particular, Manga Entertainment, and they took a much more direct to video market. You could pick those up at your video store and so forth, whereas in the US, yeah, they’re setting up this idea of. You know, later on we’ll talk about trying to do a they’ll do a these are release first. They’ll bring it to an arts cinema. Mm-hmm. And then they’ll get mail, order, catalogue sales going so not as successful as my entertainments began became Sony. You know what they’re talking about, you know, Sony Polygram. Speaker 7 Yeah. Craig The. And and video comic, Sony is really the only one today. Taylor That, yeah, it’s still around. Craig That’s, you know, yeah, that that’s the long term winner of the, you know, setting up the manga anime experience that they’ve got and not at all the way I mean here they’re characterising Sony as you know a traditional music company distributor whereas yeah the Sony. Speaker Hmm. Taylor Yeah. Craig They you know where they their own Spiderman and it owns, you know it. It sets up its own animation division. So it’s a much larger. Taylor Yeah. Craig Content creator today than it was in 95 and very much this kind of the 95 Sony they’re talking about. Isn’t what? Taylor It became. I can’t believe you just called Sony a content creator. Craig Yeah, there. Yeah, Sony, Sony did some anime content creation content creator. Yeah. Like, like, Mr Beast. Yeah. Yeah. Sonny’s content creator. Mr Beast, content creator. Yeah. So the. This. Yeah, the Orion home videos set up with streamlined pictures trying to grow that American popular culture anime space. But it was very short lived. I mean, I mean, there was a boom here in 95. UM, but yeah, the the irony being that. The prediction that they’re making here is right and wrong. Orion’s traditional video distribution approach. Did work quite well initially, but then it was Sonny’s pivot to actually making that content rather than just distributing it. That that made the huge difference. Let’s see how. Taylor Yeah. Craig The article goes on to explain Orion and some of the products that Orion was working. Speaker 8 On Ryan, approach seems to work given the context of streamlined library. Since its inception seven years ago. Streamline Pictures has concentrated on acquiring. The best theatrical anime available for distribution in North America streamlines initial exploitation of these films begins with theatrical exhibition in independent theatres and through theatrical repertory. Once an animated film has received some critical reception and played through a number of major city. Taylor I mean fantastic. Speaker 8 It is made available for home video, streamlined string of theatrical releases include Akira, Fist of the North Star, the professional Vampire Hunter Dee Robot, Carnival Lensman, Wicked City, and the forthcoming space adventure Cobra. Craig So North star, the. The professional vampire hunter D Akira robot Carnival Linsman wicked city space adventure cobra. You know, these were really the big titles that got global interest in the West from Japan. Taylor And have now become unknown. Craig I guess yeah, the the very nostalgically remembered Akira, Fist of the North Star. Taylor Spiderman Batman lend man with the magnifying glass. Craig You know, you say they they are pretty dated. Well, I guess. OK, I’ll play a clip. So here’s some promotion. Here’s some promotions for those. Particular title, so this is the Akira Sci Fi channel promotion. We’ll have a little listen to that just to put us in the mood as to how they’re promoting it. It was it was a good strategy they had in terms of first. Releasing them on cinema in the cinema and in our kind of art house cinemas. So Akira 98. Sorry in 1988 was distributed Tantric ally in the US. Many of these other titles came to Australia in anime kind of movie festivals that would play at, you know, village or Hoyts for a short period of time. Yeah, they were. Speaker 6 Yeah. Taylor Other cinemas also available. Craig Well, I mean that was the thing about these strange cinema market. There were small boutique cinemas, but you were pretty much talking about cause. I know I went to see the anime festival. The manga, manga, manga. Festival that had fist of the North Star Gogo 13 robot Carnival space adventure cobra and that was that was that. That was at Hoyts, right? Yeah. You were still stuck going to your your big cinema. And that was the Australian market, the. The smaller cinema chains were, yeah, but weren’t located as centrally. Anyway, here’s the Akira promo from 98. Speaker 7 Warning the following offer is for mature audiences only. Exciting, mysterious, intense, graphic, provocative, raw. This is no ordinary animation. This is the exotic, bizarre and beautiful world of Japanese anime and this is your invitation to enter with a modern. Classic Akira. Critics say Akira makes Blade Runner look like Disney World. It’s action packed, the future of animation. Siskel and Ebert call it the video pick of the week. Akira is yours for only four. 35 with subscription when you order the best of Japanese animation collection series with these state of the art sci-fi classics, you will enter a world beyond imagination. A future out of control and an experience you will never forget. Don’t say we didn’t warn you. Call 1-800-414-4422 now. To order Akira for only 495 plus. Craig 3495. Speaker 7 79. Taylor Yeah. Speaker 6 Volumes are 19. Speaker 4 That’s the cheap. Anyway, that phone number probably doesn’t work anymore. You could ask for your phone 95 copy of it here. But yeah it. Craig Was it was a really interesting strategy in terms of this idea of prestige anime they were offering with titles like Akira. It was going to be this kind of approaching 21st century anime portal that you could watch at the cinema and then you’d order it via mail. The catalogue? Yeah, to get it. And that was the US model where it wasn’t the Australian and UK model was different. It was really manga. Entertainment did a fantastic job of getting into all the video stores, getting their product pushed out, you know, five titles for 10 bucks or how much it was. Whereas yes, the US markets here was theatrical release then order it online, you know, and the VHS’s were were, I don’t know VHS’s were really expensive to produce and distribute. So 495 and 98, you must have been stuck in a kind of like this is your first one. Taylor Yeah. Craig And then you’ve gotta get 10 other titles at $40 each or something. Taylor Yeah. Craig Uh, also, what’s interesting here is that this strategy. Of course exists without without a kind of Internet fan community that we have today, where they’d be bingeing or where you just get through the whole episode you were waiting for whenever this movie was gonna get scheduled, then you’d watch the video. There’d be a trailer like that at the start. So it was, I guess, what this is emphasising is it’s niche. Taylor Yeah. Craig It’s it’s a small amount of product. You have to timetable yourself to get to the movie, to watch it, then you have to. Order it umm, wait for it to come in the mail or go to the video store and whatever titles they’ve stocked is what you’re going to to watch and I guess you’ve got, you know, word of mouth that this is trying to build. So let’s go to the next paragraph. Speaker 8 Has been the company’s focus on distributing English language versions of these films. The bulk of the material released in the US has been put out in subtitled versions, streamlines President Karl Massack, an animation producer in his own right, has noted that all animation is dubbed, and that streamlines goal is to make viewer friendly product, which will be. Easy to assimilate by the mainstream public. The longevity of these titles as classic anime and the quality of the original and English language post production have positioned streamlines Video comics titles as an Evergreen Library, which sells significant numbers for every title month after month. A recent article in Newsweek still points to Akira as the major title in this niche genre. Craig All animation is dubbed which is which is a little inside to one of the big debates that raged back then in 95 and still today, which is the sub versus dub debates, right, which this article is staking its claim with. Carl Macek’s claim that. Taylor Yeah. Craig You know or point that all the animation is dubbed to legitimise the English dubbing of anime. That was pretty much the standard during this 95 period. Most of the titles. Speaker Hmm. Craig You were going to be watching dubbed, and there was some backlash amongst some fans at that point saying they’d prefer it subbed. Yeah. But that was considered a a premium product that you had to pay more for to get the subtitled version. And you know, there weren’t as many titles available. Most of the titles were going to be dubbed. And the idea being what there was that, you know, it needed to be, as the article saying viewer friendly product which is easy to assume. Relate by the mainstream public, and their idea was that the only way that could happen would be is is dubbing it into English. What do you have any feelings about the dub versus sub debate? Do you reckon they were right there that actually you know it it it did require it to get dumped that it was when it was dubbed in English that it was. Speaker But. Taylor All I can talk about is is, from what I’ve seen, I prefer dark. Pokémon, Pokémon. Yeah. Spirited away all of Studio Ghibli. Craig Any reason why? Why do you prefer dumb? Taylor I don’t know. It just sounds better to my ears, yeah. Speaker 8 Oh, it does. Craig I mean there there’s a whole series. If you’re bored looking for something to do. Do a YouTube search of Subverse dub. There all these compilations of which performance does it better? Speaker 9 Yeah. Taylor Yeah. Craig I mean the initial 95 period is notorious for having poorly paid. Unprofessional. Yeah, you know, non voice actor people doing the dub. Taylor Yeah. Speaker Hmm. Taylor Have you ever you’ve seen squid game? Yes. Have you listened to the dubbed versions Squid game? It is. Craig Oh, heaven, yeah, I can’t. Well, I it’s not. I can’t. I could, but. Taylor It is. It is really terrible. Craig Makes it so bad. Taylor Because they the the the voice actors for I had no idea. They don’t put any emphasis or any. Like change to their voice and they said Ohh that person has died. Now let me go over here. Craig And yeah, look and and you know, in some ways that’s where this philosophy could be considered as as short sighted in terms of in today’s streaming environment where you can choose double sub at the flick of a switch. It does give you this experience of listening to the actor themselves perform possibly a more authentic experience than the unemotional dub that it. Taylor Sounds like whereas if you have Howl’s moving castle, yeah, Hal played by Christian Bale in his best performance. Craig Really. OK. Yeah, yeah. Because I know well, I think Ponyo has Liam Nielsen in it. There was a moment where Jubilee. I mean, see, that’s the other thing. That this article, this. Jubilee was after this article as well, so this is the other. I mean, I point to two things that happened after this article, which really did make anime huge. Taylor Yes. Yeah. Speaker Hmm. Craig And neither of which are in this article because. It would be a problem. One is Pokémon and the second one is Jubilee, right that that Jubilee was. I mean, this article was talking a lot about aspiring to mainstream success that were looking for his titles and dubbing it so we can get it into family-friendly product that can be easily assimilated to the mainstream public. That arrived with. With Jubilee, yeah, right. And and anything up until Jubilee was a partial success. Right, Sailor Moon. Right. All these efforts to launch. I mean, none of the titles. So. Far that we’ve looked at. You know, Akira, Fist of the North Star Gogo 13, the professional vampire hunter. Do you? Robot Carnival lensman, wicked city space adventurer are family friendly, right? They’re all very much your niche Sci Fi action adventure violence, you know. Whereas yes, it wasn’t until jubbly. Taylor Yeah. Violent. Craig I feel like you know my neighbour Totoro spirit was spirited away was the film that synchronised both? I think the same time it launched in Japan, it launched in the West and was considered to be enormously globally successful. Taylor Yeah. Speaker For. Craig And then the the dubbing for it. Also you’d have famous Western actors starting to dub jiggly films in particular. So yeah, yeah. And that, that, that that’s not until quite a few years after this this article. But it is I mean the one thing. Taylor Yeah. Craig They get right is the. Is that kind of prestige anime, which is what Jubilee also offered? Yeah, that Jubilee offered that prestige product. Which is family friendly, that once it’s dubbed, it’s it doesn’t lose its japaneseness, which I think is where this article gets it wrong as well. I think they define, you know, viewer friendly product that is easy to assimilate by the mainstream public. Also you know not to Japanese, right? Yes, it can be cyberpunk future. Taylor Hmm. Craig It can be, you know, assassin James Bond type character and Gogo 13 BS. Not that and and I guess the other title here that I mean 95 Evangelion screens in Japan, it’s not until a few years later that it screens in Australia in the West. So Evangelion also probably is that the title it’s still a bit niche though, isn’t it? Evangelion not really. Taylor I’ve not heard of him. Craig You have really. Yeah. You and Gina Cecil. Evangelion. Ohh yeah. Well, see, that’s interesting. So that was a real cultural touchstone. Anime. It was on TV. People fell in love with it. But maybe a bit like attack on Titan, right? If. Speaker 4 You. Taylor I’ve I’ve heard. Speaker 10 Yeah. Craig Of one piece right. You have to be of that generation. To to to say ohh that that broke through to the mainstream. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Yeah. OK. That’s interesting. Yeah. So in that case, that’s not the third factor. It’s still Pokémon and Ghibli films. Yeah, that are really the two central properties. Alright. Well, let’s push on. Let’s push on. Speaker 8 Recent activity in the acquisition of Anime Properties by a growing number of US distributors has given streamline and Orion cores to reevaluate their marketing strategy. But rather than compete with the glut of product, it’s flooding the. Craig Market I don’t. Speaker 8 Know what that streamline is? Content to work on quality productions. It’s like the tortoise. Speaker 4 Decibel. Speaker 8 In the hay, every new company is trying to beat the competitor to the punch with the latest material from Japan. We had a goal in mind when we started. We made a list of titles and went after that list. So far we have been able to acquire distribution rights to nearly every title we set out to bring to market. The strategy seems to be working. This new product, produced for the domestic Japanese market, is getting farther and farther away from the neutral international productions of the late 1980s. Following the phenomenal success of highly ethnocentric teen adventure series Sailor Moon, $250 million at last count. Most new anime productions incorporate the same sort of super deformed characters and physical gestures, which contributed to the programmes uncanny popularity. But as these gestures and design elements become more and more esoteric and obtuse, the ability of this type of material to take hold in the savvy mainstream US domestic merchandising arena is uncertain. Craig Of course, there’s a number of really interesting points. Yeah, but first. You know, so I’ll play a little clip from the Gogo 13 assassin thing for us to listen to. Just quickly now. Speaker 4 Yeah. Speaker 9 Leonard Dawson is the richest man in the world. Powerful people make enemies. If an enemy becomes a problem, someone calls the professional code name. Speaker 10 Gogo, 13 Target former Nazi S captain Bernard Mueller. Speaker 9 I’ll take the job. He never kills for sport, he never misses the mark. And he never gets involved. Speaker 6 Can’t you let this one go? Speaker 10 There’s. Speaker 9 But this time it’s personal. The hunter has become the hunted because this time he’s the target. Speaker 10 We found Gogo Thirteens preparing to shoot Sir. Speaker 6 Go see if you got him this time. Speaker 10 We had him cornered, he was wounded, and yet he was never captured and the sanction the next. Speaker 5 Time either he died or you died. Speaker 9 I want to know who’s really behind all this. Did you find out who ordered it? Speaker 10 I will not tolerate it a third time. Do you understand me? That the next time you fail, it’s what you are. We have only one enemy. The call goes 13. Speaker 6 Cheers. Craig Yeah. So that’s typical kind of adult, aimed not to your gibly or Pokémon space, but where I think this the article talks about how. You know, will these really culturally specific? It refers to them as esoteric and obtuse gestures. So in particular it points to super deformed characters and physical gestures. In the sense of Sailor Moon, it’s saying it it it made to the programmes uncanny popularity. It’s very much dismissing the japaneseness of it. So my reading of this is that, you know, when it refers to highly ethnocentric teen adventure Sailor Moon and then it says, you know. The sort of super deformed characters it has, and physical gestures, it’s saying. Taylor Hmm. Craig You know those? Those are really 2 Japanese and the questions it’s asking here is will this material take hold in the savvy mainstream US domestic merchandise area, right. So will people want to buy your car, IE cute, you know? The deformed you know the Super deformed phrases. It’s shibby. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Super deformed was the phrase for it 95. Taylor Looks. Craig It literally translated the kind of chibi or kawaii. Character distortion. So you’d have a character like Sailor Moon or Dragon Ball, who maybe is portrayed a little more action oriented, but then you’d have the Super cute version of. Taylor It, yeah. Craig Which would be kind of a squashed version. You know the eyes would be bigger. Taylor Yeah, less and less detail, yeah. Craig Do you think that aesthetic? Has in fact become. Popular do you think that the chippy? Super deformed. Anime Style is is a popular style. Taylor More than what? More than what they expected. Craig Yeah, yeah, I would agree. I would agree. My feeling here is again this is an example of the article saying, you know, that stuff’s too Japanese and what they’re looking for is more culturally neutral properties. That their argument being the 95 and future western market will only be successful if it’s not too weird and other. Which I think gets it wrong. I mean, particularly if you look at Dibella’s success, where it is culturally specific in many of their shows, certainly my neighbour Totoro, Kiki’s well, maybe less so Kiki’s delivery service. But there are aspects of the aesthetics of it there will be, you know, Carla E cute characters that are are kind of. Will trade there. Any do you? What would you say would be the most? Cute or? Jubilee film, right? The one which had a lot of. Merchandise or todero the Totoro creature. Taylor I reckon, yeah. And then all of the little other little goblin, not just the big one, but all of the small ones, which were like a lot smaller, and then they could have the life size. Craig Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that. Became quite a popular design. For that. So yeah, I’d say that. Taylor Nausica with those beasts. Craig Different I think those are good. Yeah. I mean, there are cute versions because no secure is a kind of Mad Max post apocalyptic wasteland space. Taylor Yeah. Craig Yeah, alright, well, well, we’ve got about 5 minutes left on the show, so we’ll push through to the end of the article. Taylor Ohh good. Speaker 8 As far as Massa can streamline are concerned is in Co production and joint ventures with anime producers and rights holders. By combining the best of both East and West and new category of product will be unleashed for global consumption. Several other companies have the similar viewpoints. Manga, Entertainment, Bandai and several other companies are pre buying territories. The new anime productions Jim Lee’s GN 13 is scheduled to hit the market sometime in 1996 as a direct to video production. Craig This is really interesting. So Gen 13, have you ever heard this title? So Gen 13, so they they talk a lot about Gen 13 in their SCI article saying yeah, this is the article, this is the anime. So speech to comic book series Gen 13, it’s kind of an X man comic from Jim Lee. It’s not part of Marvel or DC. Taylor No, never. Craig UM. In 95 they were producing it to for it to become this big adult animation from Disney that was going to be this kind of, you know, enemies creating Akira and Ghost in the Shell. Well, the West can do this with Gen 13, so there was a lot of hype on Gen 13 ended up. Not being distributed, they held it. It never had a US release. It got released in the UK and Australia on a limited release and was forgotten about. It was just dumped. It’s fascinating looking at the Wikipedia entry for Gen 13, I mean successful comic book series. Taylor All right. Craig And they they kind of screened it at A at the Wizard World Chicago Convention in 98, and it was pulled, it never got a America release, at least according to Wikipedia. And it was considered not to have the type of Polish that people thought a Disney. Film should have. Taylor Right. OK. Yeah. Craig And it was. It was a gamble. It was, yeah, a more adult oriented kind of teen mature. It’s that’s the. Speaker Time. No. Craig Reminding me I’m wrapping up. My shirt. OK, that’s good. But it is interesting that kind of, you know, East West collaboration that they also have in this article didn’t really pan out. You had some titles like Afro Samurai and later years, quite a few years after this, but that, that model they’re speaking about here that the future they see in the anime business is for collaboration. Between East and West, that’s the only way you’ll get a huge Western English speaking market. And spin off benefits to Japan ended up being completely wrong. Yeah, right. Japan dominated after 95 with anime titles it was producing Jubilee being probably the best example of that, but many, many other Japanese based companies went on to enormous success. Taylor Here. Craig Yu-gi-oh one piece right? I mean, everything was from Japanese companies. Still, right? It wasn’t Co produced with Marvel or Co produced with DC Comics, right? It was Japanese produced for maybe an initial domestic market that then had a a global. Taylor Yeah. Speaker Hmm. Craig Spin off and maybe there was a western version of it. You do the live action one piece now, 30 years later with one piece, right? But but not at all. Not at all the type of. Speaker But. Craig Success that this article prophesized well, let’s let’s a musical interlude, and we’ll come back with final thoughts. Speaker Yeah. Craig Yeah. So welcome back to me, you mothership. There we go predictions. What nailed it? I mean, not much. Sailor Moon. Dragon Ball weren’t the big properties that it was saying the future of anime is going to be defined by that ended up being a few years later with. Taylor Yeah. Craig Pokémon. And and there were more misses and misfires. I think with the whole idea of the less Japanese, the product is the better you know. Again I think Jubilee. Spoke to the opposite of that. Yeah, the fact that Japan went on to have an enormous tourist boom linked to this idea of its soft power with manga and anime. You had artists like Quentin Tarantino wanting to bring in a bit of Japanese vibe with a short animated Japanese anime feature in kill Bill, right? Taylor Hmm. Craig Just having any Japanese anime vibe in there because of its cultural difference became became central. Yeah. And I think in terms of this article, you can see a lot of failure to understand the Japanese market at this point. And what was making their animation. Superior to at least a western market for an older demographic. Taylor And what the Western tastes would be. Craig As well as. Yeah, yeah. You know, I think, you know, I think Salem’s going on to become an interesting character. But yeah, at the time it was first launched in 95, failed to get the type of success. They were hoping for. Speaker Hmm. Craig Or. So I think these days with like streaming services like crunchy roll and being able to jump between a double or a sub shows that whole kind of all animation is dubbed and therefore you know we just want to localise it into what is Western the most western of it. It shows shows it’s different so. You know, we’ll consider now what will be popular in. The next 30 years, yeah. Taylor I just reminded of my favourite dub from Pokémon, which is I’ll turn my trusty frying pan into a drying pan and that is a a gag which would not work in the. Craig I yes. Original. Yeah. Well, I I did have an honest student, Susan Cunnings shout out to Susan, fan of the show. She did her honest thesis on the. Taylor Oh yeah. Craig Western dub of Pokémon yeah, and all the things they relabeled like Onigiri was relabeled as a doughnut. Even even though it was drawn still as as a rice ball. Taylor OK. Yeah. Craig Yeah, yeah, she she collected all these examples of just tone deaf localization efforts to remove this kind of like, you know, well, you know, we’ll it’s it’s a cartoon or it’s a comic. So no one will notice. Taylor Yeah. Craig Anyway, so let’s let’s media mothership for another week. Show notes are available via the podcast. Join us on discord. We’re setting that up now. So yeah, keep listening. We’ve got a special broadcast of arianna’s bookshelf. Yeah, coming up that we’ll have an interview with. With a fantastic author, so keep listening now to Edge radio. Taylor An unnamed. Craig Fantastic author. Well, I thought you had a, didn’t you have a post saying something or the? OK, you just wanted to remind me that make sure or by 5. Taylor No, no. Yeah. Craig OK, keep listening to Edge Radio 99.3 FM.